Trying to figure out how to use WRA and missions to achieve desired results

[fatgreta1066]

In another thread (tm.asp?m=4412081&mpage=1&key=&#4412386) I started a discussion about how to use missions effectively. Cik pointed me toward using WRA to limit the number of weapons fired, which was great. So I'm trying that, and have run into a snag.

This is the Shamal scenario, I'm trying to use missions to handle the bulk of the attacks, but I want to have my SEAD planes shoot one HARM at a time at each target. So in the picture below, I have flight Jimmy95 on a land strike mission against an SA2 site. I have both the side WRA and the unit WRA for Harm missiles set as shown in the lower right corner. I've verified that the contact is emitting, and yet the flight won't take a shot at it. Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?

I don't show it in this screen shot, but the mission WRA is identical to these other two WRA's. You can see from the picture that the flight is well inside firing range.

[Cik]

HARMs don't count as strike weapons. you'll have to manually allocate the weapons then fly them into range as necessary, or assign them to a SEAD patrol instead.

[SeaQueen]

Not necessarily anything!

I just ran a few test cases of Land Strike missions against various SAM sites with F-16CM Blk 52s w/ HARMs. I noticed that they only engaged with HARMS when the SAM site turned on their tracking radar, not just their acquisition radar. In the case of an SA-13 this meant they wouldn't engage with HARMs at all since it has an acquisition radar but missiles themselves are optically and/or IR guided. That might or might not be a bug, depending on how you think about it. Maybe one day the "Radar" category in the WRA might be split into "Search Radars" and "Tracking Radars" to enable a little more nuance in some cases (e.g. SA-13)?

In the mean time, it looks to me like they made a decision about AI behavior with ARMs and assumed (not necessarily wrongly) that you really want to destroy the tracking radar in order to cripple the SAM site. If you only destroy the acquisition radar a SAM site might still launch. Therefore, to take advantage of the maximum HARM range, you need to bait them into illuminating their tracking radars. Where the SAM site lights up his tracking radar depends on a few things including terrain, WRA and proficiency settings.

Is the emission you're detecting a tracking radar or an acquisition radar?

I have flight Jimmy95 on a land strike mission against an SA2 site. I have both the side WRA and the unit WRA for Harm missiles set as shown in the lower right corner. I've verified that the contact is emitting, and yet the flight won't take a shot at it. Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?

[Cik]

that's interesting. i remember weasels whacking spoon rests and barlocks when on SEAD patrol- is the behavior different?

i might have to give SEAD strikes a try if that's the case, though if any devs are listening at the moment a button that mimics the behavior of strikes on SEAD patrols (target only FCRs) might also be welcome.

[SeaQueen]

Actually... I take that back, I just got them to launch at the search radar. Huh... interesting.

[SeaQueen]

Never mind, all on the target illuminator.

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Actually... I take that back, I just got them to launch at the search radar. Huh... interesting.

[SeaQueen]

I just reran the same case using a "SEAD Patrol" instead of a "SEAD Strike" and it engaged the search radar. Interesting nuance for sure.

[fatgreta1066]

In my case it's a target acquisition radar, and I've discovered what you say about how knocking those radars out doesn't prevent SAM launches.

I don't see an option for SEAD strike in my version of the game, just Land Strike. Am I missing an update?

My next attempt is to draw a very small box for a SEAD patrol around each of the targets, just large enough for the radar or missile in question. We'll see how that works.

[Cik]

SEAD strike in this case is just "Land Strike" but armed with SEAD weapons. SEAD patrol is an actual mission type.

if you want SEAD, i would just use a SEAD patrol with relatively narrow prosecution area. escorts also work.

[SeaQueen]

Yes, it is but you shouldn't necessarily use a SEAD patrol exclusively because of the AI's behavior. It really just depends. The choice of mission should depend on the desired effect and the target you're engaging.

Attacking a search radar won't necessarily put a SAM site out of commission. With datalinks and other redundancies the SAM site might still be queued to engage (this is the advantage of an IADS). In fact, if the scenario designer implements some kind of "shoot and scoot" scheme or is attacking some kind of mobile SAM site attacking the search radars may have just made your life harder because now you've got to find the SAM site in the absence of a continuous emitter! In some cases that might be quite difficult.

A land strike targeting a SAM site using ARMs will be more likely to destroy the tracking radar, and therefore put the SAM site out of commission in one hit. For example if the SAM is a SARH type, then hitting the tracking radar while it's tied up guiding a weapon on some other target is a great tactic. Against an SA-2 that's great! Against something with a more modern radar, though, it might not be so effective because they can target multiple things at once. Using a ballistic missile or a cruise missile might get TELs which degrade the SAM without necessarily knocking it out. Using a land strike mission with ARMs also entails more risk, though, because you've got to stimulate the SAMs to engage. Yikes!

[Cik]

well, that and your window is much more narrow (i assume at least) because they will fly to the site, fail to engage due to the absence of an emitter, then fly home.

unless they loiter, you'll have to micro them and play here kitty kitty with whatever you're trying to whack. which as you pointed out can be very dangerous.

best practice just depends on what you're up against. generally if i feel i'll encounter something actually threatening i will take glide weapons (JSOW/JASSM) decoys (MALD, ITALD) jammers (growler, compass) and a SEAD patrol just in case.

the objective is to saturate the target SAM, and give it no recourse. either it turns on to defend itself from the GPS/INS munitions, and gets hit by an ARM, or stays off and gets obliterated by glide bombs.

that's the ideal anyway, obviously you have to locate the thing first, isolate it from any other friends it has, establish air superiority and only then can you actually make such a concerted attack.

if it's an SA-2 all you really need is a falcon with 6x mk82 at 200 ft AGL, or a bored weasel that's been flying in circles and hanging off a tanker for a few hours to call magnum though.

[SeaQueen]

unless they loiter, you'll have to micro them and play here kitty kitty with whatever you're trying to whack. which as you pointed out can be very dangerous.

They'll loiter for a bit. I just ran it again, and a Land Strike mission with ARMs is going after search radars. Huh... odd. It wasn't doing that a few minutes ago. I wonder if it has to do with their ingress route. Huuuum...

I just noticed that if I play it in editor versus in "play" modes I get two different behaviors. Huh..

Yup... definitely a bug. It's actually not a bad thing to be able to pick between engaging a tracking radar versus a search, though.

[fatgreta1066]

Well my alternate plan (small size SEAD missions around individual targets) didn't work either. Back to the drawing board.

[SeaQueen]

Are you playing it in the editor or in "play" mode? The "play" mode seems to behave more like you were expecting.

Huh... now I'm playing through the test in "play" mode and sometimes I get the search radar, and sometimes I don't. I'm wondering if it might be a function of the high mountains in the area. Depending on where the aircraft go, they might have a line of sight to the search radar's antenna or not. Something very odd is up.

[Cik]

ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066

Well my alternate plan (small size SEAD missions around individual targets) didn't work either. Back to the drawing board.

can you explain why it didn't work? assuming they are emitting you should have no problem zapping antique radars with SEAD weapons. do you know how the interaction between ARMs and radars work?

[fatgreta1066]

I didn't think to check terrain, will do that. I've got a test scenario (a massively cut down version of Shamal) set up, I'm going to run a few test missions and see what's what. Thanks again for the feedback, it is helpful.

Chris

[JCM3000]

I've had some struggles getting Land Strike (with SEAD weapons) to launch at all despite the targets radiating. Whereas if I use a SEAD Patrol instead, the aircraft will launch automatically every time. The problem with a SEAD Patrol is that there are no waypoints for ingress/egress that you can manipulate to take advantage of terrain.

Is the failure of Land strikes to launch due to the fact that AARGMs or HARMs are not considered strike weapons (as Cik mentioned earlier) or because the targets are mobile? When the targets are ships and ASuW strike is selected, the AARGM armed aircraft will launch. It seems to only be a problem I see occasionally with land Mobile targets. Is it the case that you always need to use a SEAD patrol against mobile targets?

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: JCM3000
Is the failure of Land strikes to launch due to the fact that AARGMs or HARMs are not considered strike weapons (as Cik mentioned earlier) or because the targets are mobile? When the targets are ships and ASuW strike is selected, the AARGM armed aircraft will launch. It seems to only be a problem I see occasionally with land Mobile targets. Is it the case that you always need to use a SEAD patrol against mobile targets?

I suspect it may be because of a bug. I posted a bug report.

[fatgreta1066]

Hello fellows.

So, I've used the editor to set up some test runs and so far, I'm finding that (playing in the game not the editor), missions are functioning as I'd expect given the feedback you've told me. So I think I've got things figured out as far as wonky behavior. I'm wondering if there is any way in the game to order a unit to either:

when completing one mission auto-assign itself to another mission (so give it orders to move from mission to mission), or if not,

trigger a unit to loiter when mission accomplished if it's not winchester?

thanks for all your helpf with this topic.

Chris

[Gunner98]

You can do that with Lua - but I'm not sure if that satisfies your query

ScenEdit_AssignUnitToMission

If you're programing the AI it is quite useful

B