Use of Subs v Surface Ships

[brian brian]

Yes, a lot of rounds of naval combat could be considered a singular one day event, but not all of them. Consider the running nights of combat around Savo Island - one set of results, or multiple? Doesn’t really matter.

For SUBs though, it is absolutely different. A SUB counter represents 15 - 30 submarines (all scales in WiF deliberately imprecise). For Germany to assemble just six U-Boats to attack a convoy simultaneously on a single night would be around a high point for that tactic, and was achieved fairly rarely in the war. The SUB system is a near binary result representation of accumulated attrition, like the air combat system. Just at 30 submarines/counter, Germany deployed 36 or 37 SUB counters (placing one WiF reinforcement per turn for the entire game), and lost 25 or more of them. A CP represents around 30 merchant ships; Convoy PQ 17, one of the Allies” most savaged conoys of the war, lost 24 ships - a single CP.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: PeteGarnett

Happy New Year All.

So I should have selected the 4 box, where his fleet was, & then used 3 of my surprise points to select target for the surface combat. That would have allowed me a shot at one of his capital ships.

My subs would also have attacked with one less strength point each.

I think I understand now - thanks all.

It does appear from your description in Post #1 that your sub combat was ineffective because of the target profile being the '0' ships row.

What would be interesting (and informative for how MWiF handles this) would be if there had been any CPs in the zero box for you to include as well. Of course that might have meant an even greater amount of enemy ASW. But the question remains: "what would MWiF have decided for a target profile once you chose an SCS with 3 surprise points - '0' ships or the number of CPs?"

If there was a juicy surface target and you didn't need 4 surprise to call a combat type, then you could have gone for surface combat and with 6 surprise you could pick a target and either raise your column or lower the enemy column. You would then have had the benefit of the larger enemy target profile.

Mind you "juicy" targets are usually loaded TRSs or CVs, and for the latter, you'd need 4 surprise to call a surface instead of naval air. Sometimes it may be just not worth fighting with subs when you have 4 or more surprise points, and you should just call off the combat.

[Grotius]

Forgive me for prolonging this discussion, but I want to make sure I understand RAW8 as well as RAW7, as I've recently ordered the Collector's Edition.

1. First, does RAW8 maintain the -1 penalty for SUB attacks on warships?

2. Second, a SUB in RAW8 can damage warships even in a Submarine combat, yes? As I read RAW8, it's possible to attack CVs and SCS during a Submarine Combat by spending 3 surprise points. Even without spending surprise points, in theory a CV or SCS can take a loss instead of a CP on even-numbered losses, but the owner gets to choose, and I assume owners will rarely sink a CV instead of a CP -- though maybe an owner might sink a cheap SCS instead of a CP?. RAW8 11.5.10 says:

The SUBs also attack in the same way as a surface naval combat except that they use the SUB row of the naval combat chart and only enemy naval units in the 0 sea-box section count as ‘Enemy Ships’.

Losses inflicted by the non-SUB side can only be taken on the SUBs that attacked them (owner’s choice). For every 3 surprise points you spend, you may select the target SUB instead of the owner (see 11.5.6).

Losses inflicted by the SUB side may be any included naval unit if the SUB player spends 3 surprise points. Otherwise every odd (1st, 3rd, 5th etc.) loss must be convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW, see 22.16); and every even loss must be either convoy points (CoiF option 7: including ASW), a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice). Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.

Am I reading this rule correctly?

[paulderynck]

1. No, for surface combat, subs are their printed value in RAW8.

2. RAW8 submarine warfare is much different. First CPs are 3 per result and all results are full value so FREX a D will damage 3 CPs not sink 1. Also the target profile is all ships in the zero box instead of just CPs. As an antidote to this rather intimidating scenario, the ASW player can take every second result on his escorts. So no, you would not choose a CV there, but a Danish or Polish DD flotilla (or whatever they are) or a CW monitor (aptly named Erebus and Terror in honor of Sir John Franklin's ill fated expedition to Arctic Canada). A lot of time the second result is a D, so your pipsqueak ship can be repaired for one BP and come back in 2 turns as opposed to paying 2 to repair from 3 to 5 CPs (and 1 to repair 1 or 2 CPs). Plus those CPs have an opportunity cost while in the repair pool that far exceeds their escorts. And the part of the rule in both RAW7 and RAW8 people forget: There are no more results in sub combat once all CPs are gone. So you get a lot of interesting choices where you just might choose an X a D and an A all against 6 CPs - The X because you have no choice since it's an odd numbered result, but the D (your choice) and the A would get the (albeit damaged) CPs out of there as opposed to having them be there giving a search bonus on the next round, plus being more easily sunk with one more D. Plus it could have been an X, D, 2A and you get to ignore the last A. Other times you might be willing to sacrifice more escorts to save more CPs, especially playing LOS and needing a CP for the supply chain.

For the submarines too, there are interesting choices if they can pick a target. Apply all three of the first results to CPs by using the target choice on the second result? Or sink that escort CVL using the target pick on the first result, knowing no CPs may be affected until the third result.