The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[Canoerebel]

3/16/45

Korea: Japanese army (two units) has arrived at the key blocking hex between Keijo and Gunzan. I assume this is but the lead elements. I think it's too late for John to succeed, but there's still a smidgeon of doubt. But things are reaching a climax now, here and in China...and Death Star is closing in.

[MakeeLearn]

You have photoshopped my comments into the pic you see.


If "Victory Points are objective". Then why are you calling for a committee to change them? Will this be akin to the "The Committee of Public Safety" ?[;)] A Reign of Terror across the forum?

Victory Points are subjective to those that created them and can be biased or ambiguous to those that disagree with them. However, once agreeded upon by contesting parties they can be used objectively in determination.


"What's not biased or ambiguous is the comparison of where the Allies are here compared to the real war."

Not biased or ambiguous in comparing the "real war" to a game that has unhistorical units and actions? Equipment and capabilities that did not existed, ships and crews that can stay at sea indefinitely, DeathStar Forces... etc. It's not wrong if that is what a person wishes to do but it's not "it".

A snippet of a thought I've had on VPs is that too much emphasis is placed on places and not the people actually dying.

This comes to mind, during the occupation of Japan and the mindset of many Japanese:

"This young Japanese told us that all his fellow soldiers believed that Japan was winning the war. To them the losses of Iwo Jima and Okinawa were parts of a grand strategy to lure the American forces closer and closer to the homeland, until they could be pounced upon and utterly annihilated."

I'am not upset or angry and was not even going to reply but... I hate being misunderstood 'OH LORD PLEASE...; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxMZpNF3qN0
It makes me feel like I'am driving with a flat tire. And I'am not saying there is a wrong or a right in the VP - "Who won" debate, ... just that my comments were filtered through a lens to reflect a light not intended.

I posted the original comment, taking a less Monopoly look at the game and injecting a view of struggle where the opponent either surrenders or is killed, which more often than not, clearly defines the moment.

[Canoerebel]

We're comparing a significantly stronger Japan that's been pushed back considerably further and earlier. So it's a valid comparison.

The Death Star situation is interesting. It's a direct product of the situation. Japan has a vastly larger air force and capabilities to employ it en masse than was the case in the real war. In reaction to a much more virulent threat, the Allies respond by keeping carriers in proximity. They would've done the same if faced with a similar situation in the real war.

[Canoerebel]

3/16/45

Intelligence Screen: This is the first time I've seen "Minor Victory" in the Allied column. It must've switched recently, probably in the past week.

It doesn't mean anything yet - just that the momentum swing is continuing.

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Victory Points are objective.

"Surrender or Annihilation" is subjective. John can literally choose to play until the last dot hex is taken and declare "victory" when that happens in 1948.

What's not biased or ambiguous is the comparison of where the Allies are here compared to the real war. Pretty decisive victory by that measure, which corresponds to the game's Victory Conditions. Not biased. Not ambiguous.

Could it be that John just doesnt want the competition to end?

[Canoerebel]

There may be a hint of that for both of us. In my case, Bullwinkle once referred to it as "anticipatory nostalgia." That was an interesting perspective.

John and I have had fun for many years and now the end may be near. I think he's looking forward to this game ending so that he can begin afresh. But I think he's also having a difficult time dealing with the notion of defeat. He probably doesn't feel like he's been defeated. After all, there's no referee to step in and call the game a TKO.

I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed and I was in his position. I don't want to lose to him. He doesn't want to lose to me. But we're at the point where a winner is going to be determined.

[JohnDillworth]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There may be a hint of that for both of us. In my case, Bullwinkle once referred to it as "anticipatory nostalgia." That was an interesting perspective.

John and I have had fun for many years and now the end may be near. I think he's looking forward to this game ending so that he can begin afresh. But I think he's also having a difficult time dealing with the notion of defeat. He probably doesn't feel like he's been defeated. After all, there's no referee to step in and call the game a TKO.

I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed and I was in his position. I don't want to lose to him. He doesn't want to lose to me. But we're at the point where a winner is going to be determined.

I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed and I was in his position. I don't want to lose to him. He doesn't want to lose to me. But we're at the point where a winner is going to be determined.

I suspect John believes as the German Army did after WW I. We were not defeated in the field, therefore we did not lose. As long as his CV's have not been defeated, he has not lost.

[Canoerebel]

That's in character. Can't you see the Japanese naval commander telling the Emperor, "Hey, we still have our carriers!" The Emperor's most likely reply: "Those Allied dogs are in Korea and all over China and Formosa, you imbecile. You sat there and played with your hands and let them come. Now you want to claim some kind of victory?"

[Lokasenna]

I would have referred to a different part of anatomy.

[Canoerebel]

3/17/45

Today was one of those decisive days that for the losing side can accurately be described as cataclysmic. John suffered a series of terrible land-battle defeats.

Korea: IJA 150th Div. moved into Gunzan from the south and evaporated under massed 4EB attacks, self-destructive bombardment and Allied deliberate attack. (How sobering will this be to John's notions of an offensive in Korea?) To the east, John's big stack attacked the much smaller but tough Allied stack in the base-hex in the woods. The Japanese stack faired very poorly. And in the air, the Japanese suffered another very tough day over Gunzan. Death Star is now in the Yellow Sea. I think today was decisive. Any hope John had in Korea probably vanished today. He probably sees possibilities but the longer he lingers the bigger the ultimate defeat. I think.

China: Allies finally took Tsingtao, key coastal hex, mauling big IJ stack. (This frees up the Allied units to embark on ships and move to Korea.) Over at Tsinan, John tried a purely hopeful deliberate attack that faired disastrously. His army has no hope. I don't know what he'll do. (In China, my main hope now is to maintain the status quo until the Canton/Hong Kong units filter this far north in another three weeks or so. North China pales in comparison to Korea.)

To the south, the Herd is just 25 hexes from Gunzan.

A few weeks ago, I described this as the penultimate campaign. I think that's accurate and that it opened with a real bang today.

[T Rav]

Alfred said it best. Strategy.

[JeffroK]

Firepower!!!

[JohnDillworth]

His only shot is a couple of weeks of truly horrible weather socking in all air support

[JeffroK]

I think they would still get beaten up, even a good IJA Division cannot compete with an Allied 1945 Infantry Division, their firepower disrupts so many squads before any assault takes place.
Add a few Bns of Armour and....

[paullus99]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

His only shot is a couple of weeks of truly horrible weather socking in all air support

Where have we seen that particular line before?

LOL

[dave sindel]

I have mentioned before that when I log onto the forum, the first thing I look for are updates in this AAR. I thoroughly enjoy CR's updates and writing style. I dont read John III's AAR, I will once the game concludes.

I have also followed with interest the other ongoing thread about VP's. Many good comments and viewpoints in that thread on both sides of the debate.

As far as "victory" in this particular game - I think that if you were to take a person with some knowledge of geography and history, and no particular knowledge of or interest in WITPAE, and show that person a map of the current situation that their reaction would undoubtedly be along the lines of " Holy Crap ! Japan is doomed".

A question for you Dan - when this game concludes will you and John III play another against each other? Or will you devote all of your time to the match with obvert?

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, Dave. I'm really glad you enjoy the show.

Several months ago, John told me that he and Big Red had decided to square off in a match that he thought would start around Christmas. It hasn't started yet but probably will soon. So I don't think we'll be playing again.

We never even discussed playing another game. I would've at least considered it, in part because I don't think John has learned two key lessons that makes this game fun - he's still leaving holes in his defenses and he still steams his carriers around without the slightest idea where Allied carriers are (no detectin for weeks at a time). That means there are holes to be exploited, which is actually a great deal of fun. I enjoy conceiving, planning, and implementing the huge invasions that go deep.

I think I would've considered playing another but I might've also opted out. I know that some of the things I do (4EB and Death Star) irritate John. And some of the things he does irritate me (tipping me off to what happens when he sends the next turn and crowing when something good happens).

He and I have become good friends but in many ways we are probably incompatible as opponents.

For awhile, I think I'll concentrate on the game with Obvert while giving thought to "what's next."

[Canoerebel]

John sent this email the day after Christmas. I posted it then but want to post it again with a few things highlighted:

You wanted the land war in Asia. It has taken me FOREVER to spread you out enough to give my Imperial Army a chance. Well…buddy…lets go! Here is the war in China and Korea. It is simple. Beat the Imperial Army here and you win the war.

Your Fleet is a long-assed ways away and I THINK I can beat you in the air…perhaps…more like give you a bloody nose.

Course everything is still humming along in the Home Islands economy…

We’ve got fightin’ attitude right now.

This is an example of what I deal with pretty commonly. He lets his excitement get oughta hand sometimes. When I received this email, I wanted to reply in kind but of course elected not to. Mainly, I marveled at his sense that he somehow controlled the current disposition of the Allied army, "getting it spread out." Secondly, I was pretty darned sure that my fleet wasn't too far away to handle things, especially since CVE Death Star remained in the Yellow Sea. He'd had no detection on it for weeks, I think.

I was nearly positive that his counteroffensive in China posed no meaningful threat to anything I deem vital. I was also confident in Korea, though there I had a somewhat great concern that he might just have a chance at overwhelming the blocking hexes and then besieging Gunzan. You'll recall that I thought he'd have to move fast to get to Gunzan before Death Star returned and that I thought he wasn't doing so - that he was spending a bit too much time dealing with the blocking hexes in an inefficient manner.

But if he felt like the outcome of the land war in Korea would determine the game, I think the returns are beginning to come in.

[Canoerebel]

And I just came across this post by John in a main-page forum about re-sizing:

Dan will reach autovictory in our horrifically imbalanced Mod PRIOR to real life. This is being done DESPITE the changes in the complete outrageousness of RA 5.0 (about 20 Mod iterations ago and way too far favoring the Japanese) AND my complete defeat of two Allied Field Armies in 1943/1944.

The Allies ARE destined to win no matter what. To deny this is idiotic. It is simple truth.

The question for JFB is how well can one do compared to Real Life. That's it. Did you follow the Code of Bushido? If so, you fought the good fight and, hopefully, have learned more to take into your next match. I know I have. Dan and others have taught great lessons over the last five years of life. CHEERS to all of them for the lessons, insight, and education.

He's wrong. I can thing of a number of IJ players who could've stepped in for Japan around summer of '43 and made it very difficult for the Allies.

He acknowledges here that I'm way ahead of the historic timetable....but attributes that entirely to game balance issues rather than his play or my play. He's never going to recognize what's happened in this game.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And I just came across this post by John in a main-page forum about re-sizing:

Dan will reach autovictory in our horrifically imbalanced Mod PRIOR to real life. This is being done DESPITE the changes in the complete outrageousness of RA 5.0 (about 20 Mod iterations ago and way too far favoring the Japanese) AND my complete defeat of two Allied Field Armies in 1943/1944.

The Allies ARE destined to win no matter what. To deny this is idiotic. It is simple truth.

The question for JFB is how well can one do compared to Real Life. That's it. Did you follow the Code of Bushido? If so, you fought the good fight and, hopefully, have learned more to take into your next match. I know I have. Dan and others have taught great lessons over the last five years of life. CHEERS to all of them for the lessons, insight, and education.

He's wrong. I can thing of a number of IJ players who could've stepped in for Japan around summer of '43 and made it very difficult for the Allies.

He acknowledges here that I'm way ahead of the historic timetable....but attributes that entirely to game balance issues rather than his play or my play. He's never going to recognize what's happened in this game.

One of the brain's main functions is to protect itself. rationalization is one protection mechanisim ... to grow as a person one has to overcome these things or we continue to make the same mistakes .