The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: obvert

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

You could purchase all of those "machine cannon" units with the 20mm AA guns from Manchuria. These have a ceiling of 5K. Concentrate them all at one base on a rail-line that he is likely to bomb at 2K altitude. Once he bombs that base, set all the 20mm guns to strat move, and then move to another base. With a little luck, he will not realize that these low alititude AA concentrations only have a ceiling of 5K. He may think these are 40mm (or at least 25mm) and move his bombers up to 10k or higher. Also, I often try to have at least 1 squadron at the exact altitude that I expect 4-Es. You may be more likely to achieve some collisions this way as well.

Last turn I checked the location of ALL of my AA guns, and to be honest, I like the standalone Machine Gun units in Manchuria protecting bases there. He can reach them from Shikuka, and did already strike at Harbin.

The other part is that I've just upgraded ALL base forces to include their low level AA guns that come available in 44. I had thought they were useless, and I wouldn't do that. Haha!! Live and learn. [:D]

So now the standard IJA base force will have 6 x 20mm, 6 x 12.7mm AAMG plus 10 x 7.7mm AAMG. That should help. The JNAF base forces have 12 x 25mm and 10 x 7.7mm AAMG. The large IJA base forces have 12 x 25mm and 12 x 12.7mm AAMG.

I have a lot of those, obviously, and don't need them anywhere throughout the empire as much as on HI bases now. So I'll be collecting as many as possible to bring back and install in bases. Some more arrive soon plus some of the bigger IJNAF base forces with some 8cm DP and 25mm guns.

In addition, so IJA ground nits have built in AA MG, and are present in many important bases. Altogether this should mean no base has no AA, but of course it will be more effective as a full package of day and night fighter CAP, high and low AA guns, and radar. I will make sure bases with either a lot of HI/LI, oil and/or airframe factories get the bulk of the AA. So far it's been concentrated in big bases, but there should be enough soon to cover more.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Andav


I think Harbin is one of the only bases to intentionally build something thinking it might be safe(r) later in the war. If the Allies come from the Philippines, then the eastern part of the Home Islands would be safer. If they come like CR from the east, then the western side would be better. By the time you know, it will be too late to switch.

Wa

It's only like 18 hexes from Shikuka. [;)]

So it's been hit already, and all of the other bases right to Port Arthur are vulnerable.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]June 26, 1944[/font]

---

Ok. Here we go again.

I moved into range of Shikuka, sent a massive strike package hurling at it, had multiple sweeps going in ahead, with a more moderate LR CAP over the top to weaken and spread the defenders.

Bad day.

The strikes don't seem to be able to "see" the targets available. In the morning, only a small split group od Judys (3 planes) arrived over Shikuka escorted by 430+ A6M8 perfectly coordinated and sweeping ahead of the "strike." No go, obviously.

In the afternoon, same deal, but almost 100 planes joined in and the A6M8 again led the way, sweeping, suffering, only for a shortened combat and lots of killed Judys (about 60-70% of the strike destroyed even though protection was more than adequate). Those hit with two bombs against the Allied fleets. Flak is murderous, which is no surprise, but with so few strike planes flying, there is no hope to actually hit the fleets. The sweeping zeros also screw up the passes somehow and the combat is shortened, the CAP invades the strike package early, and wipes out a high proportion of the planes without fighting the escorts much at all.

This is obviously some problem that occurs around a very busy base hex, as we can strike with good coordination against the DS, and have shown that twice already, even with more CAP present and more ships in hex (I think). So it's something I'm not sure how to solve. If 475+ escorts cannot get 100 planes through a CAP where only about 100-150 are present at the correct altitude (and fewer total airframes available than the escorts in this pic), what can I do?

It seems my only option is to begin throwing IJN surface forces headlong into the base, sacrificing a good number with the hope some make to bombard and possibly close the fields. That seems rash right now, so I'll hold a bit and see if I can figure this out a bit more.

Any ideas?
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 26, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 56
Fires 32640

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 22
Fires 81920

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 195 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 22
A6M5b Zero x 28
J2M3 Jack x 17
N1K2-J George x 60
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 64

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 82
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 82
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 26
F4U-1A Corsair x 134
F6F-3 Hellcat x 89

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *
20 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 198 NM, estimated altitude 41,380 feet.
Estimated time to target is 62 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23
J2M3 Jack x 57
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 29

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 78
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 78
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 132
F6F-3 Hellcat x 87

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x J2M3 Jack sweeping at 38380 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 194 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
J2M3 Jack x 30
N1K1-J George x 34
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 46
Ki-100-I Tony x 32

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 75
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 77
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 131
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
34 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 199 NM, estimated altitude 35,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 45
Ki-100-I Tony x 44

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 75
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 122
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
34 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
10 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 185 NM, estimated altitude 34,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 33
Ki-100-I Tony x 28

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 74
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 40

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
F4U-1 Corsair x 5
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 11

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged

Resources hits 2
Fires 220

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-100-I Tony x 26

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 3 destroyed, 8 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-100-I Tony x 7

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
B-24J Liberator x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged

Refinery hits 2
Fires 37376

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23 (LR CAP)
A6M5 Zero x 8 (LR CAP)
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 433 (escorts - sweeping ahead of strike)
D4Y3 Judy x 4
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2 (LR CAP)
Ki-100-I Tony x 44 (Sweep??) Odd this is listed sweeping below, and arrived with the small strike?

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 64
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 73
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 12 (LR CAP)
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 431 (escort - sweeping ahead of strike)
B6N2a Jill x 14
D4Y1 Judy x 14
D4Y3 Judy x 30
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 7 (LR CAP)
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 66
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 76
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 21
F4U-1A Corsair x 123
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses

NOTE: almost no fighters lost. Very few passes against "sweeping" A6M8 or other escorts or LR CAP

A6M8 Zero: 2 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 8 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Mississippi, Bomb hits 1
CA Boston
CL Trenton
SC PC-790
DD Boyd
SC PC-788
DD Miller
DD Brownson
BB New Mexico
DD Brown

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

Untouched escorts sitting at the same altitude as the strikes, but CAP hits the strikes after only a few passes against the fighters. Note, not as many LR CAP groups here, and these are all set above 30k to work with the strikes or over the time of a battle like this, to dive on the CAP. Didn't happen at all because the combat was so short.

[ericv]

I am not an expert in the game in any way, but I have a ton of experience fiddling with memory editors.

If the engine is the problem, there are a few possible things that can cause trouble. It might be the total number of planes, or perhaps the fact that there are so many different types of planes flying, that in combination with the long range might causes coordination issues, where everything just misses everything.

It can be easily checked. Take a save.

1. Edit the number of planes in the pool with a memory editor, change planes in the attacking and defending squadrons to the same type as much as possible. (If not possible, this can be done in memory as well) run the turn see what happens.
2. In memory, edit the location of the attacking planes to Toyohara. Edit the nationality of Toyohara back to the japanese, reset the location of the Allied troops in Toyohara back to CONUS or so. Put KB in the same hex as Toyohara (this can all be done in memory) and rerun the same turn again with the same total number of planes and with many different kinds of planes as is the case now. See what happens.
3. As 2. but now (like 1.) with a minimum of different planes.
4. as 2. and 3. but with lesser and lesser total number of planes.

Rince and repeat until the number of losses becomes sensible. voila, the reason will be apparent. (but not necessarilly the solution).

Shouldn't take a lot of time.

I am really experienced with using cheat engine to edit these kinds of things in game, so if you want to give it a try and need help , just give a shout.

[adarbrauner]

Nice Ericv!

If not engine limitations, the answer may lie in what Alfred has pointed out previously, i.e. short loiter time available. It may make sense, little time for the escorting fighters to fight along, few engagements, defenders straight into the attackers.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Nice Ericv!

If not engine limitations, the answer may lie in what Alfred has pointed out previously, i.e. short loiter time available. It may make sense, little time for the escorting fighters to fight along, few engagements, defenders straight into the attackers.

The problem with Alfred's theory is that these very same planes had no problem "loitering" at max range with drop tanks in an 8 hex strike on the DS recently. They did not sweep dn they were up against a much larger CAP, so the difference is the addition of LR CAP and the base hex in which the surface TFs are sitting at Shikuka.

Even the best and most knowledgeable of us come up with theories that don't take into account when and where these things have worked differently, and worked well, as they don't have the inside view of the long term nature of the game.

Also, against Jocke in the other game I've played late, we both extensively used LR CAP and I often used it combined with KB strikes against the Allied fleets, with the addition of many more LBA strike planes of all different types.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: ericv

I am not an expert in the game in any way, but I have a ton of experience fiddling with memory editors.

If the engine is the problem, there are a few possible things that can cause trouble. It might be the total number of planes, or perhaps the fact that there are so many different types of planes flying, that in combination with the long range might causes coordination issues, where everything just misses everything.

It can be easily checked. Take a save.

1. Edit the number of planes in the pool with a memory editor, change planes in the attacking and defending squadrons to the same type as much as possible. (If not possible, this can be done in memory as well) run the turn see what happens.
2. In memory, edit the location of the attacking planes to Toyohara. Edit the nationality of Toyohara back to the japanese, reset the location of the Allied troops in Toyohara back to CONUS or so. Put KB in the same hex as Toyohara (this can all be done in memory) and rerun the same turn again with the same total number of planes and with many different kinds of planes as is the case now. See what happens.
3. As 2. but now (like 1.) with a minimum of different planes.
4. as 2. and 3. but with lesser and lesser total number of planes.

Rince and repeat until the number of losses becomes sensible. voila, the reason will be apparent. (but not necessarilly the solution).

Shouldn't take a lot of time.

I am really experienced with using cheat engine to edit these kinds of things in game, so if you want to give it a try and need help , just give a shout.

I love testing this kind of stuff, and if I can't figure out a solution in game I may have to do this. It takes some time though. As I just mentioned, the critical difference here is the presence of surface fleets in a base hex and the addition of LR CAP to the strike package from the KB. The KB has struck recently with three different models of escorts, about 5 different models of strike planes, and successfully launched coordinated strikes at 8 hexes.

The issue seems to me related to planes sweeping, and in this case, the bulk of the escort planes (A6M8) sweeping ahead of the strike. These planes were barely involved in the combat, and in general the escorts were not involved (as shown by very light losses) where the LR CAP did fight the CAP and the CAP easily tore into the strike package.

I'm also concerned that even though numerous high value targets were in hex, more than adequate search/recon were used, somehow only about 25% of the total strike planes available on the KB launched to strike. This is harder to test.

[obvert]

From those who've been in late game situations: any thoughts?

1. Does LR CAP inhibit KB strike coordination or encourage escorts to sweep? (maybe due to the "'knowledge" that more protection is in hex?)

2. Is there any way to get strikes to "see" the important ships in a hex that is well protected and includes possible hundreds of ships in TFs sitting in a base hex? (how to get full strike packages to fly at massive targets in a base hex?)

[zuluhour]

2 cents as I have only been on the other side in '45-'46.
smaller and more packages over the target.
wear out the CAP.
*Interesting the small number of losses on the sweeps.
Where is GreyJoy????????
It seems he had the opposite issue from the Allied side, I'll try and find it tonight.

[Lowpe]

I have quite a few theories, but to be honest somewhat hesitant at pointing them out currently.[:'(]

I have long advocated the sweep ahead strategy, and I think I have a good grasp on the triggers to do this, but sweeping ahead of a big coordinated strike is something you want to avoid.

A method, favored by Mr. Kane, is that a high naval skill commander better targets the air squadrons attacks. I am dubious if this does indeed take place but given it's advocate do apply it in selecting air leaders.

I will point out that you need to ditch the Rex from escorting.[X(]

There is at least two types of escorts, and what you need to do here is figure out how to guarantee a close escort. Your strike package arrived with the majority of fighter protection on far escort. Additionally, an approach from the other side of the island would have let you get within 4 hexes for a normal strike range of the A6M8.

[ericv]

as i am not a late game player. : good luck with it

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

(In a lot of ways this is wrong way thinking. You want to catch and nail bombers and also provide no free lunches to the Allies).

Well, I have given this thought....quite a bit of thought, in fact. Say no more here on that, however.

The problem we have here, having caught up, is that Obvert is letting bombers get thru in the daytime with no fighter, or fighter/bomber protection. It isn't that hard to get coverage up, but it does show Obvert focus is in striking and not defending. Float fighters and fighter bombers should be greeting those deep raids at the very least.

You have several rings of defense needed, and you need to really start from the outer ring and work your way forward.

Think of not giving the Allies any free lunches: every raid outside of fighter protection should run into floats or fighter bombers or obsolete fighters, even if you need to fractionalize those units to cover the area.

To defend against low level strike you need radar, high percentage 0 range cap set at 2-4K altitude.

Letting the bombers hit Harbin for free, ouch. There are several restricted Tony squadrons that should be all over Manchuko and Korea. Harbin is what, in the top 5 bases in Manchuko/Korea? Especially if it is a big Frank/NF/Sam factory (which it should be).

Try to get into a feel for how the Allies strike...very hard to do with low level strategic bombing. But get 3 Jack/Tony squadrons and use them to bounce from likely base to likely base in an attempt to catch those bombers. 70% CAP, 0 Range, Altitude 4K or less. This is probably one of the best uses of the ki100 with its cl cannons, high dur, and SR1.

All of this is boring, takes time and clicks, and is certainly less satisfying than hitting the Allies.

[Lokasenna]

I'm still not convinced that there's something fishy going on so much as minorly "weird" things (but things we know about) are happening at the margins - such as perhaps a discrepancy between the number of planes reported in a combat animation vs. how many are actually there (which is perhaps an artifact of the loiter time).

Your LRCAP is operating from a very extreme range (7 hexes? 8? with IJN aircraft...they aren't exactly P-38s with DTs). Until that's absolutely eliminated, that's my Occam's Razor. I really don't think there's anything going on that's more complicated than that. Maybe the fact that they're "there" (but can't loiter) is drawing off large numbers of his CAP/preventing more of his CAP from hitting your strike craft. But those are all plausible reasons to me and don't suggest that anything is actually broken.

And again - I've had battles with enormous numbers of aircraft as well. Here are two excerpts where some LRCAP was in play (I think, but mostly escorts):

Maximum time to intercept for my units was between 25 and 45 minutes in the first fight, between 20 and 38 minutes in the second - but all groups had a number of "planes intercepting now". Even then, note that planes still got through to attack. I really don't think anything funny is going on in your game and I'm not convinced your LRCAP is even doing anything.

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 52
J2M3 Jack x 23
Ki-84r Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 173
F4U-1D Corsair x 296
F6F-3 Hellcat x 99
F6F-5 Hellcat x 162

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 28 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 5 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------

Raid detected at 116 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 44
N1K5-J George x 9

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 173
F4U-1D Corsair x 292
F6F-3 Hellcat x 99
F6F-5 Hellcat x 157

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 24 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Independence

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

Here's a bonus third

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 10
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 27
Ki-48-IIc Lily x 48
Ki-84a Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 157
F4U-1D Corsair x 287
F6F-3 Hellcat x 97
F6F-5 Hellcat x 153

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 30 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-48-IIc Lily releasing from 10000'

[mind_messing]

@Loka,

If any of them are my strikes, I doubt there's any LRCAP at all: I didn't use it at all really. After seeing the results here, I may just start to use it.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have quite a few theories, but to be honest somewhat hesitant at pointing them out currently.[:'(]

I have long advocated the sweep ahead strategy, and I think I have a good grasp on the triggers to do this, but sweeping ahead of a big coordinated strike is something you want to avoid.

I don't want the escorts sweeping!! In this case the coordination is so good they're just happy to shoot on ahead. I can't also risk messing with altitudes to discourage them from sweeping ahead, as that could wreck my coordination.

A method, favored by Mr. Kane, is that a high naval skill commander better targets the air squadrons attacks. I am dubious if this does indeed take place but given it's advocate do apply it in selecting air leaders.

I will point out that you need to ditch the Rex from escorting.[X(]

There is at least two types of escorts, and what you need to do here is figure out how to guarantee a close escort. Your strike package arrived with the majority of fighter protection on far escort. Additionally, an approach from the other side of the island would have let you get within 4 hexes for a normal strike range of the A6M8.

All CV TFs have a commander with high AIR and NAVAL skill ratings.

My Rexes are great. Don't mess with my Rexes. I don't convert the CS cruisers, so they're used there. A very good low level CAP and escort plane if you ask me. [:)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The problem we have here, having caught up, is that Obvert is letting bombers get thru in the daytime with no fighter, or fighter/bomber protection. It isn't that hard to get coverage up, but it does show Obvert focus is in striking and not defending. Float fighters and fighter bombers should be greeting those deep raids at the very least.

Haha!! Letting!??? [&o][:D][:D][:-]

It's a bit impossible to cover every base on the HI, and at this point the most important bases are my priority, so Yamagata wasn't covered. Float fighters are with the fleet, and FB are covering bases. Right now a lot of bases have nearby bleeding cover plus one unit flying 70% 0 range CAP.

Harbin was hard to take, but I had al of my fighters at the other big bases there, and in fact I'd rather have Harbin hit than the oil at Anshan. All the groups there are flying CAP and Harbin now has some cover, but the real problem is that CAP isn't stopping the beasts!

You have several rings of defense needed, and you need to really start from the outer ring and work your way forward.

Think of not giving the Allies any free lunches: every raid outside of fighter protection should run into floats or fighter bombers or obsolete fighters, even if you need to fractionalize those units to cover the area.

I haven't split groups as I'm finding at 2-7k I need a LOT of numbers to stop the bombers getting through, and even if 10 get through, they trash the place. (See Kushiro).

To defend against low level strike you need radar, high percentage 0 range cap set at 2-4K altitude.

Radar is being distributed, but until some more IJNAF base forces return to the HI I can't cover all bases that need it. It will be done, but these daylight raids are just very bold, very effective, and I'll admit, have caught me off guard. I thought my fighters would do a bit better, but even Jacks set in the same hex at 7k didn't bring down a single B-29, and bleeding fighters joined in too.

Letting the bombers hit Harbin for free, ouch. There are several restricted Tony squadrons that should be all over Manchuko and Korea. Harbin is what, in the top 5 bases in Manchuko/Korea? Especially if it is a big Frank/NF/Sam factory (which it should be).

Factory there is one 10 x Emily factory. That's it. Of course the industry is important, but so are the other bases, and I didn't have enough to cover all at that point, very early on. Luckily, the damage is light. [&o]

Try to get into a feel for how the Allies strike...very hard to do with low level strategic bombing. But get 3 Jack/Tony squadrons and use them to bounce from likely base to likely base in an attempt to catch those bombers. 70% CAP, 0 Range, Altitude 4K or less. This is probably one of the best uses of the ki100 with its cl cannons, high dur, and SR1.

All of this is boring, takes time and clicks, and is certainly less satisfying than hitting the Allies.

I will cover all bases but I'm not going to play roulette. He will hit my CAP, and it will happen big as he's taking enormous risks. I have been in attack mode, which I'll still have to do for a bit, but now the rest of the groups have arrived and older airframes been upgraded, so there is more cover. I could use my FPs, but something has to still train pilots, and right now that's what those groups are doing.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm still not convinced that there's something fishy going on so much as minorly "weird" things (but things we know about) are happening at the margins - such as perhaps a discrepancy between the number of planes reported in a combat animation vs. how many are actually there (which is perhaps an artifact of the loiter time).

Your LRCAP is operating from a very extreme range (7 hexes? 8? with IJN aircraft...they aren't exactly P-38s with DTs). Until that's absolutely eliminated, that's my Occam's Razor. I really don't think there's anything going on that's more complicated than that. Maybe the fact that they're "there" (but can't loiter) is drawing off large numbers of his CAP/preventing more of his CAP from hitting your strike craft. But those are all plausible reasons to me and don't suggest that anything is actually broken.

This last one only the Jacks were at max normal range with DTs, at 9 hexes, but they also were at 38k, so I thought that would still be a benefit.

The rest were A6M3a and Oscars, which were at 8-10 hexes, but not still max normal range. They did interact with the sweepers earlier, but not as much during the big strike. Watching also it was odd, just the A6M8 hitting some CAP, then the CAP breaking through to wreck most of the strike, then the strike. Very few passes, very quick.

And again - I've had battles with enormous numbers of aircraft as well. Here are two excerpts where some LRCAP was in play (I think, but mostly escorts):

These aren't big numbers! [:D]

It's a decent CAP though.

Maximum time to intercept for my units was between 25 and 45 minutes in the first fight, between 20 and 38 minutes in the second - but all groups had a number of "planes intercepting now". Even then, note that planes still got through to attack. I really don't think anything funny is going on in your game and I'm not convinced your LRCAP is even doing anything.

The funny thing has to do with cooperating sweeps. If sweeps (escorts deciding to sweep or sweep I set) cooperate in multiple groups as one massive sweep, the combat is non-existent. That's the problem.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm still not convinced that there's something fishy going on so much as minorly "weird" things (but things we know about) are happening at the margins - such as perhaps a discrepancy between the number of planes reported in a combat animation vs. how many are actually there (which is perhaps an artifact of the loiter time).

Your LRCAP is operating from a very extreme range (7 hexes? 8? with IJN aircraft...they aren't exactly P-38s with DTs). Until that's absolutely eliminated, that's my Occam's Razor. I really don't think there's anything going on that's more complicated than that. Maybe the fact that they're "there" (but can't loiter) is drawing off large numbers of his CAP/preventing more of his CAP from hitting your strike craft. But those are all plausible reasons to me and don't suggest that anything is actually broken.

This last one only the Jacks were at max normal range with DTs, at 9 hexes, but they also were at 38k, so I thought that would still be a benefit.

The rest were A6M3a and Oscars, which were at 8-10 hexes, but not still max normal range. They did interact with the sweepers earlier, but not as much during the big strike. Watching also it was odd, just the A6M8 hitting some CAP, then the CAP breaking through to wreck most of the strike, then the strike. Very few passes, very quick.

And again - I've had battles with enormous numbers of aircraft as well. Here are two excerpts where some LRCAP was in play (I think, but mostly escorts):

These aren't big numbers! [:D]

It's a decent CAP though.

Maximum time to intercept for my units was between 25 and 45 minutes in the first fight, between 20 and 38 minutes in the second - but all groups had a number of "planes intercepting now". Even then, note that planes still got through to attack. I really don't think anything funny is going on in your game and I'm not convinced your LRCAP is even doing anything.

The funny thing has to do with cooperating sweeps. If sweeps (escorts deciding to sweep or sweep I set) cooperate in multiple groups as one massive sweep, the combat is non-existent. That's the problem.

8 or 9 hexes for LRCAP, regardless of the plane's normal range, is very, very far.

The strikes not being big numbers is precisely my point - there's a large CAP there and bombers still get through, in similar-ish numbers to what's getting through for you.


Combined sweeps are weird and I do think that's a strange flaw in the engine, but I think it's completely separate from what's going on here - which is to say, I don't think anything is going on here.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

8 or 9 hexes for LRCAP, regardless of the plane's normal range, is very, very far.

It is far, but these groups did play a big part in the earlier sweeps during the strike day combats both times. It's only during the strike that they aren't involved, and I thin this has to do with the small number of passes due to the cooperating sweeps. So essentially it's taking away a viable and effective tactic I've used successfully in other situations to get a strike through more easily.

The strikes not being big numbers is precisely my point - there's a large CAP there and bombers still get through, in similar-ish numbers to what's getting through for you.

Combined sweeps are weird and I do think that's a strange flaw in the engine, but I think it's completely separate from what's going on here - which is to say, I don't think anything is going on here.

Something is going on, which is that the CAP cannot be worn down by the absence of combat. The escorts sweeping also means they don't directly protect the bombers as closely, so fewer get through. Often with this much escort I've seen the escorts get 90% through since the CAP faces the 400+ escorts for most of the available passes, which is part of what Michael M fixed for GreyJoy/rader, reducing the total number to 300 (I think?) so the bombers could make it.

Even if I take 1:2 losses and get a larger portion of the strike package through, that also means the CAP is somewhat worn down. In this case it's hardly touched because there is little actual combat. With 600+ fighters in the sky on both sides, that is a problem.

The other issue is the inability to get viable strikes launched. I'll probably have to sacrifice hundreds of LBA strike planes to actually get a decent DL on these ships, and get a full KB strike to launch, which I find odd since against a bigger CAP on the DS there is no problem, with much less search involved and a much bigger CAP, more ships, more flak, etc.

[obvert]

If I have time I'll look at obvert vs Jockemeister and have a look for massive air battles around the PI and Korea that include LR CAP, naval strike and sweeps. What I didn't have in those as far as I can remember is cooperating sweeps, at least not from the KB. The KB fighters acted as dedicated (or to use Lowpe's term, "close" escort as opposed to "distant" escort sweeping ahead of the strike).

Are my CV TF commanders too good? [:D]