Darkside Newbie Wants Hints

[tocaff]

I'm planning my strategy, tactics and first move as the Japanese. It's scenario 2 and I'm allowed to "fix" damaged factories in the editor. I've never played as the Japanese and have no idea as to the workings of the Japanese economy so any input that could help me would be greatly appreciated. I've played the Allied side in 4 campaign games with mixed results and have decided that I want to give a go with the other side. I feel that I have a good idea of what my targets are and how to go about reaching them for phase 1 of the war. Of course depending on the results phase 2 targets are flexible. Phase 3 will probably result in seeing me getting hammered. My overall goal in playing is always win, lose or draw to offer a good game to my opponent and to have fun while learning.

[GetAssista]

Read this one first tm.asp?m=2933397

[AndriahBlashkovich]

Oh boy, Japanese economy could work as a standalone game. Luckily, you can find tons of guides on this forum, like the one GetAssista linked.

Another important advice, get the WiTPTracker to keep an eye on your economy, it's an invaluable tool for the JFB in you. [:D]

And something I'd add, don't rush your development, make a sensible synergy between your industry growth plan, oil and resource centre occupation plan and R&D plan. Hakko Ichi should make things a bit safer in that regard, but it's still worth to keep your appetites in check.

[Mike Solli]

I agree, decide how much supply you want to spend per day on manipulating your economy and stick with that. Once a factory is completed, use the freed up supply to work on another. I ended up making a spreadsheet to slowly upgrade portions of my economy and prioritized it. Supply is a hot commodity for the Japanese early in the game. If you eat up too much, you're out of luck. You'll never recover.

[rustysi]

First let me just say. [:D][:D]

Next and most important is listen to that man directly above, and read his AAR!!!!![&o] [&o][&o]

[rustysi]

Additionally:

Realize the Japanese economy is a game within itself. Its easier to mess it up than get it right, so if you're playing a PBEM as a first run Japanese (something I don't recommend, if you wish 'to offer a good game') player do things slowly. You may not get the economy you want, but it'll less likely implode.

OK for starters, you'll want your total HI production at ~7500, since that's x2 it'll be 15000. I'm pretty sure scenario 2 starts at that level. If so leave it alone. Keep in mind that you will capture some HI sites that'll add to your total as well. I shoot for a 30k/day supply level, and that includes supply you get from refineries. It would be difficult for Japan to go higher with the inputs she can be expected to acquire.

Don't repair damaged/captured refineries, you have plenty of excess in the HI. Do repair oil facilities if you can hold them, safe from attack for a while (about 100 days).

Don't buy Manchurian garrison units out to the bare minimum, 8000, leave a bit extra in there, say about 85 to 8600. This to avoid the unexpected, like device upgrades temporarily lowering the level. In reality that's only abut one less division you'll be able to get out. By the time you get out that many divisions, what's left to get out isn't much worth it. Look especially at each units' artillery component as that is the 'queen of battle'.

Be aggressive in China, but don't be foolish. Keep your losses low and his high. There are tons of resources in China and you will need as much as you can get. This does not mean you need to eliminate China, but you need to leave her prostrate. If you leave her alone by the end-game she will overwhelm you. With this in mind you may wish to make a foray into NE-India, this will help isolate China further. You may need as many a 10 divisions to pull it off, depending on Allied opposition, but for no more than say six months. This is to conquer those bases within range for an airlift. As you reduce China you may then withdraw from these positions. This is totally up to you and isn't 100% necessary as early Allied lift capability isn't that high. Keep in mind that he/she can make a difference early on though if they wish to make the effort. Bombers man be used as transports.

Keep your early aircraft investments and expansions to just what you need, as too much here will drain your already limited supply. You need this to make your early conquests. Don't invest too much into late war planes at this time. You can set your R&D factories up, but don't expand them to their limits as it won't get you much back at this time anyway. Its also an additional suck on your supply.

There are many other considerations, but I could be here all day.[:D]

Hope this gives you a few ideas. Don't forget to read as many of the posted 'set up' guides that you can find here.

Ciao

[AndriahBlashkovich]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

First let me just say. [:D][:D]

Next and most important is listen to that man directly above, and read his AAR!!!!![&o] [&o][&o]

Anyone got a link to the AAR in question? :3

[geofflambert]

You are allowed to cheat in the editor. Do not do it. "Damaged" factories represent factories that have not been built yet. The game engine uses the damage repair algorithm to also represent the building of factories from scratch, and continuing to complete factories that were under construction. Do not accept the conceit that your are repairing anything. There are in fact no damaged factories, or damaged oil fields or damaged refineries when the game begins. Stay the F out of the editor unless you are trying to create well thought out mods. I sure wouldn't want to be your opponent if you thought it was ok to change things through the editor to suit you.

[tocaff]

We agreed to things that we're allowed and not allowed to do. I never would do anything outside of the parameters allowed as it would be cheating both of us.

Good hints, thanks guys.

I think that I'll forgo the factory "repairs" and concentrate on the fighting.

How about airframes and paths to take?

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: tocaff
How about airframes and paths to take?

Read these recent threads. Skip all the gamey/legit rants inside
tm.asp?m=4354969
tm.asp?m=2825013
tm.asp?m=4199401

[pws1225]

Hi Todd - About airframes and research paths, I believe that researching fighters is the most fruitful course. In particular, I spilt the 80 R&D factories you get in scenario 2 between the Zero line (starting with the Rufe), the Sam, and the Frank line. Experience in our games have shown me these are the best available fighter airframes you get (although the Shinden isn't too shabby either). I allocate 30 to the Zero line, and 25 each to the Sam and Frank.

Build R&D factories to size 30 starting from day 1. Note that you will have to bump the requested supply in each city with an R&D factory to around 4,000 to maintain the 10,000 supply points needed to repair. Your factories will be fully repaired in about 63% of the time until the airframe would become available without any R&D. Also remember to research the Ha-43 and Ha-45 engines so the latter model airframes can have some engines. They fly better that way. [:'(]

Once your R&D factories are fully repaired, there are two methods that you can use to advance through the airframe line. With a fully repaired R&D factory, you can advance the research through each successive airframe in the line all in one turn without causing the factory to become damaged. For example, looking at the Zero line (A6M2-Rufe -> A6M5 -> A6M5b -> A6M5c -> A6M8) you can advance through the entire line all the way up to the A6M8 in a single turn. In practical terms, that means you could begin researching the A6M8 in late March/early April 1942. With 25 R&D factories devoted to the line, you could have the A6M8 flying by mid-1942. I have never used this method in our games as I think it is too unrealistic. Instead, I prefer the other method which calls for researching each model in the line fully before advancing to the next model. This method takes longer and gives the IJN the A6M8 sometime in mid to late 1943. I like the later method better since it gives Japan a fighter roughly comparable to the Hellcat at just about the same time as the Hellcat becomes available.

Also, check out the thread titled "Understanding R&D Factories" on page 2 of the general forum. In particular, read InfiniteMonkey's post #4. You can learn most everything you need to know about R&D in that single post.

Good luck you LYB!

P.S. - Don't forget you can accelerate ship construction too. That's fun to do!

[Lowpe]

That repairing of factories goes back to the very early release of WITP AE and is not needed in a current and patched game.

Scenario Two is very forgiving to Japan, you are strong, good stockpiles and plenty of potential tank units.

[Lokasenna]

I don't follow on what OP means by "repair factories" either... repairing R&D factories? That'd be bonkers.

First tip: it's not actually the dark side. It's the cardinal red side (as opposed to the blood red side that is the Soviet icons).

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich

ORIGINAL: rustysi

First let me just say. [:D][:D]

Next and most important is listen to that man directly above, and read his AAR!!!!![&o] [&o][&o]

Anyone got a link to the AAR in question? :3

Don't need a link, just look at page one of the AAR section. Its right there and still active.[8D]

[rustysi]

How about airframes and paths to take?

You'll need the Oscar and Tojo for the early expansion and a bit after. While this is going on you need to get the Frank research up to speed. Try to get Sam research up ASAP for the Navy, but don't neglect the George. Its not a carrier A/C, but is a good LB naval fighter. As far as other late war models, you can concentrate on them after getting the other stuff up and running. I haven't played scenario 2, but I can tell you what I've mentioned will put enough of a strain on scen1 supply.

If you don't have one get a copy of the 'airframe wire chart', there's a recent thread here that has the link.

[Lokasenna]

I forswore the Oscar. I've found the Oscar-Ic to be a good sweeper in early 1942, against Hurricanes and P-40E's, but once I can replace that function with Georges the Oscar is going. I'm not R&Ding any more of those planes, either.

In my first Japan game, I R&D'd all the way to the Oscar-IV, with its cannons. It was very underwhelming.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I forswore the Oscar. I've found the Oscar-Ic to be a good sweeper in early 1942, against Hurricanes and P-40E's, but once I can replace that function with Georges the Oscar is going. I'm not R&Ding any more of those planes, either.

In my first Japan game, I R&D'd all the way to the Oscar-IV, with its cannons. It was very underwhelming.

I like the Oscar III and IV. I don't want to waste the already purchased factories and they are good LR escorts. They're also service 1 with armor and the CL 20mm by the end, which are decent. You also can get them quite early.

It just fits how I play to keep some of these producing. Everyone should consider the costs and make their own choices.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I forswore the Oscar. I've found the Oscar-Ic to be a good sweeper in early 1942, against Hurricanes and P-40E's, but once I can replace that function with Georges the Oscar is going. I'm not R&Ding any more of those planes, either.

In my first Japan game, I R&D'd all the way to the Oscar-IV, with its cannons. It was very underwhelming.

I like the Oscar III and IV. I don't want to waste the already purchased factories and they are good LR escorts. They're also service 1 with armor and the CL 20mm by the end, which are decent. You also can get them quite early.

It just fits how I play to keep some of these producing. Everyone should consider the costs and make their own choices.

The Oscar III is right around the corner for me. So far, I have to agree with Lokasenna. It's been a flying casket for me. I am doing the R&D out to the Oscar IV in my AAR though. We'll see. Obvert, my reasoning for seeing through to the IV is the same as yours. We'll see if it is worth it though. I keep looking back to the range, armor and cannons.......and hoping. [:D]

Edit: I'll have to check and confirm, but I believe one of the Oscar models is the single model with the highest losses of any model on either side in the game so far. [:(]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I forswore the Oscar. I've found the Oscar-Ic to be a good sweeper in early 1942, against Hurricanes and P-40E's, but once I can replace that function with Georges the Oscar is going. I'm not R&Ding any more of those planes, either.

In my first Japan game, I R&D'd all the way to the Oscar-IV, with its cannons. It was very underwhelming.

I like the Oscar III and IV. I don't want to waste the already purchased factories and they are good LR escorts. They're also service 1 with armor and the CL 20mm by the end, which are decent. You also can get them quite early.

It just fits how I play to keep some of these producing. Everyone should consider the costs and make their own choices.

The Oscar III is right around the corner for me. So far, I have to agree with Lokasenna. It's been a flying casket for me. I am doing the R&D out to the Oscar IV in my AAR though. We'll see. Obvert, my reasoning for seeing through to the IV is the same as yours. We'll see if it is worth it though. I keep looking back to the range, armor and cannons.......and hoping. [:D]

Edit: I'll have to check and confirm, but I believe one of the Oscar models is the single model with the highest losses of any model on either side in the game so far. [:(]

Mine is the Frank-r [:D]. It's a healthy mix, though.

I stopped using the Oscar-IV after it died in droves as long range escorts, and the CL cannons on it are just not good enough.

The Ki-100-I is far superior if you want CL cannons, and can arrive around the same time as the Oscar-IV.

[Shark7]

As everyone else has said, the Japanese economy is a game in itself. You'll find yourself constantly wanting to produce more of X, Y or Z, and finding out that you just don't have enough Supply or HI to do it.

Remember, the Japanese economy is brittle. Expand one factory too much and you might just collapse the whole thing. Expand slowly as was suggested above, and most of all, go in knowing what you want to produce end game. Concentrate on getting to that point, but keep in mind that some factories can not be reduced in size once expanded (engines, shipyards, etc).

Aircraft: I tend to plan for building Tojo or Tony mid-war (they're about the same), with the Frank, George and Sam as the main fighters late war. I also think that for Japanese players, fighters are far more important than bombers due to the fact you'll be on the defensive from mid-43 onward. And I do agree with obvert on the Oscar line, as they do 'busy' the allied CAP when used as escorts for bombers, especially with the low service rating.