Darkside Newbie Wants Hints

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I forswore the Oscar. I've found the Oscar-Ic to be a good sweeper in early 1942, against Hurricanes and P-40E's, but once I can replace that function with Georges the Oscar is going. I'm not R&Ding any more of those planes, either.

In my first Japan game, I R&D'd all the way to the Oscar-IV, with its cannons. It was very underwhelming.

I like the Oscar III and IV. I don't want to waste the already purchased factories and they are good LR escorts. They're also service 1 with armor and the CL 20mm by the end, which are decent. You also can get them quite early.

It just fits how I play to keep some of these producing. Everyone should consider the costs and make their own choices.

The Oscar III is right around the corner for me. So far, I have to agree with Lokasenna. It's been a flying casket for me. I am doing the R&D out to the Oscar IV in my AAR though. We'll see. Obvert, my reasoning for seeing through to the IV is the same as yours. We'll see if it is worth it though. I keep looking back to the range, armor and cannons.......and hoping. [:D]

Edit: I'll have to check and confirm, but I believe one of the Oscar models is the single model with the highest losses of any model on either side in the game so far. [:(]

Low durability is it's obvious downfall, and late game mixed with slow speed isn't a great combo. BUT, as an escort I don't care if they die, I care about their manoeuvre letting them make some of the CAP miss and get the escorts through, and for this they've been good.

The Ki-100 is also somewhat disappointing, although it has better durability, I just haven't found it to last much in defensive layered CAP against sweeps. Against bombers it's great, and it's a decent escort too.

For me the Tojo just dropped off in effectiveness after about mid-44 last time through, so I need something else service 1 to be a useful low CAP, escort and multi-use plane. I make both the Ki-100 and Oscar, and still making the Tojo now, but really want a George/Jack for the IJAAF. It's fine if Symon's speed and manoeuvre changes are in use, as the Ki-100 gets a major boost, but without that it's pick your poison.

I've never tried to only produce Franks and Georges. I imagine at some point in 44-45 half my fighters would be sitting on the ground repairing. I've tried to be economically conservative in my current late game but for all of that I'm seeing B-29s get through and my economy taking a hit, so it might be better to front load and have more to battle initial stages of Allied strat bombing. Its all so game dependent there is no easy answer.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
As everyone else has said, the Japanese economy is a game in itself. You'll find yourself constantly wanting to produce more of X, Y or Z, and finding out that you just don't have enough Supply or HI to do it.

Remember, the Japanese economy is brittle. Expand one factory too much and you might just collapse the whole thing. Expand slowly as was suggested above, and most of all, go in knowing what you want to produce end game. Concentrate on getting to that point, but keep in mind that some factories can not be reduced in size once expanded (engines, shipyards, etc).

I think it is more of an urban legend that you can suddenly collapse Japanese economy by expanding too much. As much as I would like more mistery surrounding those brave JFBs, economy is not brittle.
Collapse (defined by running out of supply and maybe HI) is a real threat but it is thing of the distand future at the time you are deciding on expansion. The real question is whever collapse will come sooner (in the end of 44) or later. And this is what you are deciding on when expanding.
The only situation you can refer to as "a crash" (which it is not) is the sudden lack of supplies on HI in the first months of 42 with all the expansions and shipping out. Well, you can always turn off some repairs and wait for the industry to produce more supplies (AFAIR ~20k a turn on Home Islands) to fill the hole. Then turn on repairs and proceed.

[pws1225]

Based on my experience, I'd say GetAssista is right about the brittleness of the Japanese economy. For example, I typically expand all my aircraft and engine R&D factories to size 30 beginning on day 1. In both scenario 1 and 2 games I have yet to encounter a supply shortage in the HI. I suppose if a player were to aggressively expand their industry, shipyards, etc. as well it could lead to problems, but I haven't pushed the envelope that far.

[geofflambert]

I nudge up LI outside of the home islands as well as in Hokkaido and Sakhalin. The resources they use producing supply don't have to be shipped anywhere.

[geofflambert]

I like to cut back on shipbuilding a lot and converting ships from surplus roles to more useful roles is a big thing. In my current game I let Yamato finish construction but it's just parked in the home islands. I've no idea what I'll ever use her for. Musashi has been idled and I don't know if I'll start her back up or when. I've stopped all sub production except for the classes that carry search planes. I'm real stingy with airframe factories but not with engine factories. Exceptions are I converted the Ha-31 factory to something else and I idle the Ha-35 factory whenever I can. I'm sure I'll want an Ha-31 factory in the future at some point, but not now. I try to keep IJN air units out of attrition fights, the planes I can replace but not the aircrews. Make the army air do everything it can. Don't be bombing ground units all the time, it's a complete waste. Bomb airfields and ports when you need to. The keys to this war are shooting down planes and sinking ships. Bomber crews need to be proficient at Naval Attack, Naval Search, and ASW as well as Ground Attack. Training is a more profitable use of time than trying to drop eggs on LCUs.

I forgot to say, Shinano is cancelled. No way she ever gets built. The Unryu class is accelerated.

[Kitakami]

The only situation you can refer to as "a crash" (which it is not) is the sudden lack of supplies on HI in the first months of 42 with all the expansions and shipping out. Well, you can always turn off some repairs and wait for the industry to produce more supplies (AFAIR ~20k a turn on Home Islands) to fill the hole. Then turn on repairs and proceed.

This.

This is the one thing that gave me untold headaches until I learned to not overdo it. If you see your supply piles in the HI dwindle, stop factory conversions for a bit, and then restart them one by one, in priority order. If you learn to do this right, the rest is a lot easier.

[geofflambert]

You don't need to wait for the Kamikaze rule to trigger to have IJA bombers sink ships, and you don't need to build planes for one-time use until you are desperate.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: obvert



I like the Oscar III and IV. I don't want to waste the already purchased factories and they are good LR escorts. They're also service 1 with armor and the CL 20mm by the end, which are decent. You also can get them quite early.

It just fits how I play to keep some of these producing. Everyone should consider the costs and make their own choices.

The Oscar III is right around the corner for me. So far, I have to agree with Lokasenna. It's been a flying casket for me. I am doing the R&D out to the Oscar IV in my AAR though. We'll see. Obvert, my reasoning for seeing through to the IV is the same as yours. We'll see if it is worth it though. I keep looking back to the range, armor and cannons.......and hoping. [:D]

Edit: I'll have to check and confirm, but I believe one of the Oscar models is the single model with the highest losses of any model on either side in the game so far. [:(]

Low durability is it's obvious downfall, and late game mixed with slow speed isn't a great combo. BUT, as an escort I don't care if they die, I care about their manoeuvre letting them make some of the CAP miss and get the escorts through, and for this they've been good.

The Ki-100 is also somewhat disappointing, although it has better durability, I just haven't found it to last much in defensive layered CAP against sweeps. Against bombers it's great, and it's a decent escort too.

For me the Tojo just dropped off in effectiveness after about mid-44 last time through, so I need something else service 1 to be a useful low CAP, escort and multi-use plane. I make both the Ki-100 and Oscar, and still making the Tojo now, but really want a George/Jack for the IJAAF. It's fine if Symon's speed and manoeuvre changes are in use, as the Ki-100 gets a major boost, but without that it's pick your poison.

I've never tried to only produce Franks and Georges. I imagine at some point in 44-45 half my fighters would be sitting on the ground repairing. I've tried to be economically conservative in my current late game but for all of that I'm seeing B-29s get through and my economy taking a hit, so it might be better to front load and have more to battle initial stages of Allied strat bombing. Its all so game dependent there is no easy answer.

That's the difference [:)]. I do care if they die... well, if they die before they can kill stuff. That's my experience with Oscars. I stopped wasting good pilots on them, and since I really only use at least decent pilots still... I'll escort with Franks, thanks.

The Ki-100 is better on paper than in practice, yes. I've found the same - it tends to get slaughtered by things like P-47s and Corsairs on sweeps, more so than the Tojo, but at least it's over my own base. I will also use them for escorts - they do better in that role than in sweep defense.

I'd say that my IJAAF fighter force is at least 50% Frank-r. I'm pretty satisfied with how everything is performing. Actually, I have that Tracker open right now. I have (maximum unit size used):

16 Sentai, 1 Chutai, 1 detachment of Ki-84r Frank: 790 planes
12 Sentai, 1 Chutai of Ki-100-I Tony: 604 planes
4 Sentai, 1 Chutai of Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 212 planes
2 Sentai, 2 detachments of Ki-83: 117 planes
2 Sentai, 1 Chutai of Ki-102a Randy: 84 planes
2 Sentai of Oscar-IV: 98 planes (these are exclusively on night CAP, where they'll only be seeing bombers)
3 Sentai of Ki-84a Frank: 49 active duty, 146 training

4 Sentai, 2 Chutai of Ki-27 Nate for training: 286(?) pilots

So you can see that the Ki-100 is my primary CAP plane to fill in for the Franks (which also fly CAP, and occasionally sweep with the Ki-83 as well, which I will use more of as I build up a pool of them). I had actually cycled the Tojo out almost completely, until the Tony started getting shredded. I switched back to a mix and am more satisfied with that. Maybe this turn I'll switch my Oscar-IV's to Tojos, if I can.

[Lokasenna]

Back to the original question(s)...

I will respond and say that I don't think managing the Japanese economy is a "game unto itself." Once you have it set up, it's very easy to simply check on a couple of key indicators every turn and in most cases do absolutely nothing. That will be all of 1943 for most folks, I'd think, plus late 1942 and at least part of 1944. I don't think I touched hardly anything with my production values between June of 1943 and June of 1944. I may have increased some aircraft factories, but that's less a result of the economics than of military necessities. Can't defend the resources without planes, so I don't even consider the cost of the planes.

The key is to be patient. Lack of patience will lead one to overbuild aircraft factories and shipyards. Just be patient and wait for the production to come. You might run out of A6M2's in the pool in early 1942 and be tempted to boost production by 60 so you get 2 more per day, but in a year you'll be sitting there with a factory turned off because your pools are plenty big enough and you'll never use all of the A6M's. Just one example.

That said, in my latest Japan game I've greatly increased naval shipyards instead of merchant shipyards by a slight amount like I did in my first (and still ongoing) game. I had reasons for doing so, but just know that once you understand how it all works you can change what you're doing from game to game pretty easily.

[rustysi]

but keep in mind that some factories can not be reduced in size once expanded (engines, shipyards, etc).

Its wasteful, but if in dire need you may turn them off. So no, you don't want to over expand.

[rustysi]

really want a George/Jack for the IJAAF.

FYI. These are naval aircraft.

[geofflambert]

Escorting anything, from the Japanese perspective, is a really bad deal. If you must do it send your worst crap, not your best. A good way to avoiding getting good pilots killed escorting bombers is don't send the bombers. Establish air superiority if you can and maintain it. If the bombers don't have a reasonable chance to sink any ships it's a double tragedy to send fighter pilots with them. If you don't like an enemy airfield shell it with BBs, that's all they're good for anyway.

[John 3rd]

That is a well said and viable point!

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Escorting anything, from the Japanese perspective, is a really bad deal. If you must do it send your worst crap, not your best. A good way to avoiding getting good pilots killed escorting bombers is don't send the bombers. Establish air superiority if you can and maintain it. If the bombers don't have a reasonable chance to sink any ships it's a double tragedy to send fighter pilots with them. If you don't like an enemy airfield shell it with BBs, that's all they're good for anyway.

Absolutely!

To add to the last line: Never send like ships to a surface naval engagement. Always have the largest ships. Your BBs against his cruisers, etc. That means, never engage his BBs in a surface action. Even if you wipe him out, you'll take significant damage that you can not afford. Enemy BBs are meant to be taken out by your aerial and sub torpedoes.

[geofflambert]

And always have the biggest aircraft carriers with the biggest planes and way, way more of them! [:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Escorting anything, from the Japanese perspective, is a really bad deal. If you must do it send your worst crap, not your best. A good way to avoiding getting good pilots killed escorting bombers is don't send the bombers. Establish air superiority if you can and maintain it. If the bombers don't have a reasonable chance to sink any ships it's a double tragedy to send fighter pilots with them. If you don't like an enemy airfield shell it with BBs, that's all they're good for anyway.

I disagree.

Weaker escorts with worse pilots on your part just means more of your strike package gets shot down before it even has a chance to do anything because its escort package crumbles faster. It is better to get more bombers through and make the sacrifice of your pilots and planes worthwhile. Not to mention they will perform better against enemy CAP.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

The only situation you can refer to as "a crash" (which it is not) is the sudden lack of supplies on HI in the first months of 42 with all the expansions and shipping out. Well, you can always turn off some repairs and wait for the industry to produce more supplies (AFAIR ~20k a turn on Home Islands) to fill the hole. Then turn on repairs and proceed.

This.

This is the one thing that gave me untold headaches until I learned to not overdo it. If you see your supply piles in the HI dwindle, stop factory conversions for a bit, and then restart them one by one, in priority order. If you learn to do this right, the rest is a lot easier.

Kitikami you make valid points.

Mistakes I've made have left lasting impressions. I certainly managed to collapse the IJ economy more than once by either trying to expand too much too early leaving me short on supplies, or making some factories too big, leaving the HI pools too small at end game when your opponent starts to starve you of resources. These days I take a more cautious approach, expanding a few things at a time and reassessing my situation.

So basically the lesson I learned is 'Don't produce more than you need in the early game.' Having a pool of 3,000 A6M2s doesn't help anything when they are obsolete cannon fodder in 1945, for example.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Escorting anything, from the Japanese perspective, is a really bad deal. If you must do it send your worst crap, not your best. A good way to avoiding getting good pilots killed escorting bombers is don't send the bombers. Establish air superiority if you can and maintain it. If the bombers don't have a reasonable chance to sink any ships it's a double tragedy to send fighter pilots with them. If you don't like an enemy airfield shell it with BBs, that's all they're good for anyway.

I disagree.

Weaker escorts with worse pilots on your part just means more of your strike package gets shot down before it even has a chance to do anything because its escort package crumbles faster. It is better to get more bombers through and make the sacrifice of your pilots and planes worthwhile. Not to mention they will perform better against enemy CAP.

I've also found that choking back the range of your bombers so they don't launch when the enemy is as far away from the base helps as well. But experiences may vary.