Panther Games' Highway to the Reich revolutionizes wargaming with its pausable, continuous time game play and advanced artificial intelligence. Command like a real General, under real time pressures to achieve real objectives on a real map all within the fog of war. Issue orders to your powerful AI controlled subordinates or take total control of every unit. Fight the world's most advanced AI opponent or match wits against your friends online or over a LAN. Highway to the Reich covers all four battles from Operation Market Garden, including Arnhem, Nijmegen, Eindhoven and the 30th Corps breakout from Neerpelt.
how on earth do you get units to move in formation without kicking into road column mode on the way there and getting creamed?
ie: I want to get lets say a group of 5 units (3 inf, 1 arty, hq) to move to location x and defend there. I don't want them to convert to road formation and get creamed on the way there so I tell them to move in "arrowhead formation" by clicking the little triangle in the order options and tell them "shortest" so they go directly there in a straight line. Do I also have to set a frontage size?
They proceed to convert to road mode and run off and get mauled on the way in because there just happens to be something between them and the destination. Once they run into the enemy, they stop and reorg into what looks like in-sit formation, but not until getting hurt.
What am I missing apart from the obvious?
It hurts that the old forum is gone because I'm going to probably annoy people with silly questions that have been answered a million times over.
Here is the way it works as best I know (of course, I could be wrong):
Move+Formation: The units travel in this formation on their way between waypoints.
Defend+Formation: The units travel based on what the AI chooses, but assume the requested formation at the DEFEND task waypoint.
Attack+Formation: The units travel based on what the AI chooses, but assume the requested formation at the FUP for the attack.
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In my experience, do not send units to DEFEND something if you don't know anything about the opposition which they will meet. If you expect a warm reception (as in taken under fire), then plan to ATTACK. How do you know what awaits you? Send a single fast mover (single unit) to scout in advance of the main force prior to issuing orders for the larger force. I will choose a platoon of Light Tanks, Armored Cars, or Engineers.
When to issue DEFEND orders?
(1) You know that your force is going to meet no opposition and they will have time to deploy and dig-in.
(2) You will meet opposition, but you have superior numbers, fire power, and arty resources so you can brute force your way through any resistance.
(3) You have just completed a successful attack and the enemy is reeling. You cancel the ATTACK orders and issue DEFEND orders appropriate the foot print and disposition you wish to maintain at the objective.
I hope that helps.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
still it would be nice to have a ..."ghost key" to facilitate getting your troops in a coherent line...but all you have to be is really more vigilante as they get near the line:eek:....well 'day of the dead' is just about to come on late night west coast TV....you all's have a good day:)
Is there still little use for the "probe" command? It has been previously stated that using the Attack or defend orders are more preferable: is this still true with HTTR, or has some work been done to revise the probe order?
Could Mark's sending out a smaller unit followed by the larger force be combined into a "probe".
Also, was the "timed attack" (coordinated) bumped from the wish list to production?
TANX
Andrew
I decided to ignore my orders and to take command at the front with my own hands as soon as possible - Lieutenant General Erwin Rommel
Another matter of personal opinion here. I play using mainly ATTACK and DEFEND despite a wide range of options provided through the interface. I think the most critical factors for victory are:
(1) Knowing where to ATTACK or DEFEND.
(2) Knowing when to ATTACK or DEFEND.
(3) Know in what strength to use for your ATTACK or DEFEND.
(4) Keeping your arty safe while parked/moving and using it effectively.
It is like most things in life. An expert who has mastered/employing the basics is far more lethal than a novice who is taking advantage of the full range of finesse offered. (That is not to say that I am an expert. I am most likely a mid-level player who has mastered the basics.)
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In the technique I proposed for scouting I find DEFEND to be the command of choice. Why?
(1) You could use MOVE, but, as far as I know, MOVE and DEFEND yield the same results when applied to a single unit.
(2) PROBE only really probes from the FUP to the final waypoint otherwise it is the same as MOVE or DEFEND.
(3) In my proposed technique, I am not only trying to determine what the opposition disposition is at the final waypoint, I want to also determine if the selected route is safe to travel on. Generally, the scouting mission is going to be followed by a major force which will ATTACK or DEFEND. In either case, the goal is for them to deal with the enemy at the end of the the route and not along the way.
I have rarely used PROBE (with toned down aggressiveness and casualties) for the following:
(1) To provide the enemy intel sitings away from where the main attack will come. In other words, a feint. However, I have never attempted to gather any empircal data to determine if this really works with the AI. However, I do believe that the AI is supposed to reorient its forces location and facing based on the location of perceived threats. So, in theory this should work.
(2) To maintain contact with the enemy in the rear or flank of his forces while most of my forces are out of contact. This effectively gives my artillery a list of targets to shoot at. As it would be shame to have those big guns sitting around silent while the enemy is waiting out there to kill you. This generally will mean that over the course of the game, the probing unit will be sacrificed. The enemy does not take kindly to being harassed by a lone unit, and it also has arty which is hungry for targets.
I hope that helps.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
Re Probe: If you order an Attack the AI controlled subordinate will keep pressing home the assault until it breaks. However, for a Probe the AI subordinate may assess that it's too threatening or that its exceeded its acceptable losses. in which case it can then "bunker down", which effectively places the force in a temporary Defend.
Re Co-ordinated Attack Timings: The AI determines if a complex attack can be effectively coordinated and will then set a common HHour. The player cannot. Next Game I'm afraid.
Originally posted by MarkShot In the technique I proposed for scouting I find DEFEND to be the command of choice. Why?
(1) You could use MOVE, but, as far as I know, MOVE and DEFEND yield the same results when applied to a single unit.
Contradict with this?
Originally posted by MarkShot When to issue DEFEND orders?
(1) You know that your force is going to meet no opposition and they will have time to deploy and dig-in.
(2) You will meet opposition, but you have superior numbers, fire power, and arty resources so you can brute force your way through any resistance.
(3) You have just completed a successful attack and the enemy is reeling. You cancel the ATTACK orders and issue DEFEND orders appropriate the foot print and disposition you wish to maintain at the objective.
I don't believe they are in contradiction. However, the distinction might have been implicit. So, I will try to make it explicit.
In the first quote, I am talking about how to use a single unit for scouting. {A unit that is commanded to MOVE will basically assume a defensive posture and DEPLOY->DIG-IN->FORTIFY. So, for scouting you could just use MOVE, but I find creating a DEFEND task is just clearer to me, since that is what will happen when the final waypoint is reached.}
In the second quote, I am talking about how to use the DEFEND task to defend a certain location with a multi-unit force.
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I believe that MOVE and DEFEND do differ somewhat when dealing with multi-unit forces. With MOVE, they will defend (DEPLOY->DIG-IN->FORTIFY) at the final waypoint. However, I believe the difference is that at the end of the MOVE they will tend to spread out less (meaning occupy a much smaller footprint), then with a DEFEND task. Futhermore, if you use DEFEND, then you can use the parameters for the TASK to tweak quite a few important things at the destination. This includes: formation, facing, and aggressiveness.
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Another common use for the DEFEND task is to dettach arty and mortar units from the other forces and put them on call at fire bases. I do this all the time with arty and occassionally with mortars.
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Might as well throw out some more thoughts on DEFEND usage. When you look at a particular location you have two ways to go about its defence, you can give that order to a force and let it organize everyone or you can give each individual unit orders. This depends both on your personal style and on the situation. Here is my thinking:
* Macro-Defend*
(1) Do this when the terrain is fairly homengenous such as all woods, bua, or clear. Thus, little is gained by individual placements.
(2) Do this when you have no idea what the enemy axis of attack will be. The AI will respond by restructuring the defense based on what intel is available.
(3) Do this when you want a more dynamic defence. (see above)
(4) Do this when it's a very large battle and you don't want to be bothered.
(5) Do this when you don't have to worry about a small force making a desperate stand against a superior attacker. (For example, it could be an objective which is well behind the forward edge of battle.)
* Micro-Defend *
(1) The AI goes for footprint coverage over terrain value when is sets up implicit orders for a force. So, in a defensive perimeter with a few choice location with excellent cover and otherwise open or polder, the AI will make no distinction. However, you can. Thus, you can have your companies dig-in into the best terrain such as small woods or bua. Once dug-in in such a situation, a small force can be very difficult to dislodge.
(2) You want to exploit terrain features in a very detailed way. (similar to above) Giving a force a LINE formation with a DEFEND task tends not to place them in a tree line nearly as nice as you can do by hand. Once again, I don't think the AI really sees the treeline and the 2km of polder in front of it as an opportunity which you are trying to exploit.
(3) Good placement of AT units (towed and/or self propeled) can do a tremendous job of halting movement at key intersections and bridges when hand picked locations are choosen in conjunction with the LOS tool.
(4) Placing mortar units on defence where they are least likely to be spotted by an assaulting enemy is a wise thing to do.
(5) Individual units when given orders during the first 59 minutes (when playing with ORDER DELAY=PAINFUL) will move much quicker than a larger force. They go immediately to their destination with no pauses. A larger force will travel with bounding overwatch and maintain proper security. Do this when the speed of setting up the defense is critical and you know that you will initially be unopposed, but must deploy and dig-in ASAP.
(6) Sometime is a good idea to leave a few individual units with DEFEND a good distance from the main macro-DEFEND force. These individual units act as a screen for the approaching enemy. They serve the following purpose: (a) early intel of enemy location, strength, and intent, (b) possible disruption of enemy attack FUPing, (c) a chance wear down the enemy with arty before they hit your MLR, (d) an opportunity to delay the enemy approach, thus allowing the MLR more time to deploy and dig-in, etc ...
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{I just realized that I got carried away and this post is way too long. Sorry. As you can tell, I feel very excited about this game. It truly is very special.}
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
Mark, excellent points, I see where you are coming from with the removal of delays by directly controlling a individual unit could result in you getting the high ground instead of having to fight uphill. This is what prompted my post in the first place. My standard opening in the V4V days was to shoot my recon team directly at the bridge used by the 10th SS to stall them a bit due to it's high rate of movement giving me a little more time to hook around the 9th SS.
My question comes into play with how the units move in the various modes.
Do crewed weapons (AT guns, Heavy machine guns, etc) get set up and used as the movement happens or does one need to manually control these guys with specific defend hops outside of the main force to gain the benefits they bring?
I couldn't help but notice Dave's comment in another post "Remember they need to be deployed to get their HMG online and these provide the bulk of their firepower" which now has me wondering ... is this a new thing or is this the standard in the old game as well?
Obviously the only chance the paras have against armor is to catch them in anti-armor terrain where they can close the range before being cut to pieces, but they do have a few AT groups that given the chance could make a huge dent in the early weak german armored groups given the chance. Am I throwing away this golden chance to get value out of these small units by having them included in the Attack structure instead of hand deploying them with special LOS considerations with the Defend command?
In general it seems that for multi-unit forces, DEFEND + a formation will result in a move in column to the final location then spreading out into formation; MOVE + a formation will result in spreading out into formation and then moving to the final location.
Support units like HMG, Inf How, AT and AA units will move in the assault (ie not able to use their main equipment) until they achieve a position from which they can fire on the enemy, at which point they deploy in order to bring their heavy weapons to bear.
Units on the march that get into contact tend to halt and take cover. They deploy and so after a short delay they will be able to use crew-served weapons. When controlled by an AI HQ (ie you've given orders to a Bn HQ or higher) units will move using bounds and overwatch, ie deploying at points along the route, so there is generally someone set up to fire most of the time.
First, I definitely prefer to use a Move order for my recce units. I set Aggro to Max to maximise the probability that they will engage any enemy they encounter and hence halt on contact. I set Losses to Min so that if they start taking casualties they will send me a message early on. If I like I may sometimes also set a formation such as arrowhead especially when the route is cross-country. This gives good firepower up front and reasonable flank protection and firepower. So if they encounter someone they can quickly dish it out.
Sure Defend allows you to set parameters at the destination. But I reckon that the most important phase of a recce mission is the route there and the Defend will just default to road column and the standard parameters for a Move. Moreover, with a Move the unit will Defend once it arrives at the destination. I'm usually keeping an eye on this type of mision anyway and so once there I usually then give it another order - Defend or another Move.
Re Macro Defend. The AI actually calls a GetGTI() function on every unit when deploying them into a Defend position. This will seek the ground of tactical importance ( GTI ) or the best terrain for the unit in question within a certain range of its formation location. This range varies according to overall formation size and can be between 100 and 500m. It does tend to place units in covered terrain if available.
Part of the problem Marshot referred to above about units being ordered to Defend in Line along the edge of woods and then the AI placing them forward of the tree line was a bug in the Task perimeter drawing code, which we have just fixed. This was drawing the forward edge of the perimeter for Line formations 200m short. It took a while to track this one down, but its now squashed. Mark, why don't you try it in the new beta build?
Oh a third point. The AI will try and deploy to the edge of covered terrain. It does know there good. It does this within the GetGTI() function, so it is limited to a certain range of their formation location.
because I'm going to probably annoy people with silly questions that have been answered a million times over.
