Spying and Intel (S&I)

[PrinceMiskin]

Is my understanding correct that the higher level of all allied parties (or axis) will determine the bonuses for all allied parties (or axis).

In short there is no benefit in investing in S&I for Italy, if Germany has already invested in it.

[sPzAbt653]

I think you are misunderstood, there is a 1% benefit as explained in the manual 9.2.4. Research Sharing
So for example, no investment in Italy will gain no benefit [1% of nothing = nothing].

[PrinceMiskin]

9.9.7. Spying & Intelligence

"The Spying & Intelligence levels of neutral Majors are also taken into account when determining results, and only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

There is also an example under 9.2.6, but it is not adequately explained.

"3. Let’s continue with the examples from above and now include the Spying & Intelligence bonus. In this example we will assume that our Spying & Intelligence is 2 levels higher than our enemy’s. Base Chance + (highest enemy level - current level) + (highest friendly level - current level) + Spying & Intelligence modifier) x research chits invested 5 + (3 - 1) + (4 – 1) + 2 x 1 chit = 12% chance of success per turn"

[sPzAbt653]

But none of that means that Italy gets the same level as Germany, only a percent benefit. You still should invest in S&I for Italy. Personally, I invest in S&I for everybody I control as Priority #1, because you have a better chance of breakthroughs. Breakthroughs are sweet !

[PrinceMiskin]

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: PrinceMiskin

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

Hi

This is referring to the benefit gained from one Major on your side having a higher level of Spying & Intelligence than your opponent, and relates to section 9.2.5 on pages 98-99 of the Manual, and in example 3 in the bottom left of page 99.

This is for the gradual progression from 0 to 100% in terms of research progress.

The chance of a research breakthrough once the 30% threshold has been passed is also increased by the relevant Major researching Spying & Intelligence, which is why Italy's investing in this is still beneficial (not forgetting the intelligence reports it can provide too).

[PrinceMiskin]

Thank you. This is clear now.

[Icier]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

But none of that means that Italy gets the same level as Germany, only a percent benefit. You still should invest in S&I for Italy. Personally, I invest in S&I for everybody I control as Priority #1, because you have a better chance of breakthroughs. Breakthroughs are sweet !

Does that apply to all S/I or only to the ones that you are currently researching ?

[BillRunacre]

It would apply to current and future research.

[gingerbread]

I have a hunch that the Allies and Soviets have a negative effect on each other - I invest a lot in S&I. They should not help since they are not coop but neither should they cause malus since they are not belligerent.

[Taxman66]

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

ORIGINAL: PrinceMiskin

What is the meaning of this sentence?

"... only the Major on each side with the highest level of Intelligence research affects Research progress."

Hi

This is referring to the benefit gained from one Major on your side having a higher level of Spying & Intelligence than your opponent, and relates to section 9.2.5 on pages 98-99 of the Manual, and in example 3 in the bottom left of page 99.

This is for the gradual progression from 0 to 100% in terms of research progress.

The chance of a research breakthrough once the 30% threshold has been passed is also increased by the relevant Major researching Spying & Intelligence, which is why Italy's investing in this is still beneficial (not forgetting the intelligence reports it can provide too).

What, exactly, is the increased chance of breathrough amount?

If Germany is at level 1 and the UK at level 1 (thus cancelling both sides gradual increase) and the others (US, IT & USSR) at level 0, what is the increased chance Germany and the UK have (assuming no shared or catch up benefits.

[BillRunacre]

Hi

Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression.

So in your example, Germany and the UK will negate each other's Spying & Intelligence.

Bill

[Taxman66]

Bill, I'm aware of that.

I was asking about the increased chance of a breakthrough you mentioned in the last paragraph of post #5 (included in my quote above)

If that doesn't exist, or is dependent upon having S&I higher than the other side then it would mean that there is absolutely no reason for multiple major powers on the same side to reaearch it; at least in regards to improving research chances, both gradual and breakthrough chance

[Taxman66]

I really would like an answer to this.

In short I'm wondering if there is ANY research benefit (it would have to be breakthrough chance improvement, as it is clear there is none to gradual increase) to having multiple major powers on a side invest in Spying & Intelligence.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Taxman,

When the checks are made, it is relative to your own per country level versus the highest level of your enemy. So if the Intelligence level of Italy is lower than any of your enemy levels, then the Intelligence level of Italy is negated when applying the research bonus. But if Germany has a higher Intelligence level than any of the enemy, then they would receive the applicable research bonus.

Hopefully this clears it up,
Hubert

[Taxman66]

Ok got it.

Given that the USSR (and Italy for that matter) are unlikely to catch up with Germany's (or the UK's) investment it's probably not a wise early investment for them.

[Taxman66]

Oh and thank you for taking the time to explain the details. I hope you can see how the original statement could be tkaen to mean something else.

[Sugar]

Actually every major is able to research Int. from their first turn on, thereby increasing the chance of a breakthrough or simply be faster than the other side by luck. This is overall slowing research down, preventing the Axis from running ahead in PbEMs++ uncatchable and therefore highly recommended for any allied player.

[Taxman66]

Not completely so.
The other powers don't start with enough MPP to research it on turn 1. And realistically, as the USSR are going to spend your first 150 MPP on S&I or save for the 200 to get Infantry Weapons 1 started? Same for Italy and either inf weapons or naval? And if you suggest France, I will laugh.
Maybe the US might buy that first. Still won't be turn 1.

[Sugar]

Since any investment increases the chance of a breakthrough, the 3 chits of GB, US and SU are providing an increased chance over the 2 of the Axis, thereby equalling their advantage of being the first.

Even if your not able to achieve a higher lvl than your opponent for more than a few turns (if ever), it`s preventing him from running ahead. If the highest lvl of each side are the same, every nation is still benefitting from their own int.-research, and since every lvl of Int. is providing an increase of 1%, every single branch will also benefit, thereby equalling the(theoretical)loss of the sold chits of anyway obsolete investments in Log., Prod., Anti-Tank or rockets.

Besides: researching naval for the Axis is redundant, they`re able to win a decisive Victory without any ship at all.