Subs! Again! tweaking strongly recommended

[LLv34Mika]

Hi everyone, especially developers

of course this is just MY opinion and please see it as simple opinion and not more.

But if you ask me there is something to do with the subs. They are by far too powerful. My problem is not that they are dealing too much damage. I can also live with the increased dive chance.

But what I really can not understand is:

- why does a sub dive forever?
- why are the destroyers not causing any damage?


To question 1
It would be GREAT if the dive chance of a sub goes down to [insert what you want] as soon as the supply drops to 0. I just imagine a Type VIIc boat with damaged batteries, low on power, no compressed air in the tanks and a heavily damaged hull but it keeps diving, diving, diving, diving... no matter how many destroyers are around.

Question 2
at the Moment I'm playing a game vs Amadeus. My British destroyers have ASW tech level 1 and the German U-Boats are on level 1 too. Doing ONE damage to a German submarine (Str 2, no supply, almost no readiness and morale) is not reasonable to me. I have 6 - 7 destroyers placed around that one single sub for four or five turns now and it is still floating. Yes, it can not cause any damage but I can't sink it. Why is that a problem? I think in unbalances the game. That way you can use ONE sub as bait and as soon as the destroyers are around the Kriegsmarine can come closer to sink the destroyers. If ONE sub can keep the whole navy busy that seems overpowered to me.

My wish would be that the destroyers do a bit more damage again and if possible the diving chance should be reduced or (if possible) reduced if the supply of the sub drops to zero. Not sure if it is possible to add this feature but more damage would be a little workaround at least.

Feel free to comment that or to discuss it and add your opinion.

Thanx for reading and to be honest... I love that game anyway, even if it stays as it is

Mika

[Taxman66]

That sounds like you are attacking them in storms.

Note that the situation improves more in favor of the destroyers as the tech levels (even if sub & DD are matching levels).

However, I do agree that dive chance should be modified based on supply level and/or morale/readiness level.

[PvtBenjamin]

The changes to sub vs destroyers warfare in the last patch are ridiculous. The current Axis subs are silly invincible.

The most important changes to improve the game are to amphibious capabilities and Mass Air Power.

Without Mass air power Mr Sugar goes from invincible to very good.

[Taxman66]

I didn't have much of a problem with damaging subs in the youtube game, except at the beginning when both were tech level 0. Even then I eventually managed to get down to 6 or 4 strength with 0 supply.
Then when he brought them out in an ill advised attack on Scapa flow, I believe I sank 2 of them outright in 1 turn.

Attacking them in storms is when you get all those 0:0 or 0:1 predictions.

[LLv34Mika]

happened with both... in storms and in calm sea. As said, it is ok for me that subs are really strong but it is not ok for me that I need ALL destroyers I have to sink just ONE sub. Not in one turn, in four or five turns. That's the biggest danger. While hunting one sub three others escape to the Atlantic and start raiding the convoy lines again. And the problem is that once the one sub is gone the destroyers are low on str, morale, supply and readiness and have to get back to GB/Canada before they can start to hunt again. That way it takes ages.

That's why I still think that the attack value vs subs should be a bit higher and/or the subs should stop diving as soon as supply drops to 0.

[room]

I'd say that subs should take a progressive morale hit every time they dive in a turn after the first time. 1st dive in: nothing, 2sd diving 1%morale hit, 3rd dive: 2%morale hit etc...

Also Destroyer could take a static morale hit of 1% every time a sub they target dive.

[PvtBenjamin]

Due to the fact that destroyers start with minimal attack value subs are free early to gain experience without much concern.

This makes the imbalance continue as each side gets research.

I had a 10 str lv 1 Sub (one *) surrounded by 8 10str lv 1 asw destroyers (0 *). It look 3 turns (22 attacks) in calm seas to finally sink the sub. The sub dove 5 turns in a row. I agree that at least the probability of diving should reduce more after each dive.

In hind site v 1.12 did a disservice to sub warfare.

[KorutZelva]

I like the change. Subs stick around a little longer but eventually bite the dust.

But all in all, sub warfare is just a sideshow for UK player entertainment by providing temporary aggravation. [:)]

[ivanov]

I think destroyers serve mostly for chasing off the subs from the convoy lines. Given their low sub attack value, you shouldn't really hope to deal much damage to the subs. Motor boats and escort carries are much more effective in killing the U-boats. I think I like how the things work now. Most of the players get frustrated when they are unable to achieve a kill, but right now ( as in reality ), the convoy battles are about area denial and protection, not about killing the U-boats.

[Taxman66]

Again, I've found once the levels start going up the hits start doing significant damage and the kills come.

You just have to be willing to invest 3 chits (doubled up), and you will get to level 2 pretty quick. Of course this means not doing other things with that money.

[PvtBenjamin]

750 u boats were sunk.

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Again, I've found once the levels start going up the hits start doing significant damage and the kills come.

You just have to be willing to invest 3 chits (doubled up), and you will get to level 2 pretty quick. Of course this means not doing other things with that money.

How does a 12 str lv 2 sub stack up (include dives) against a 10 str lv 2 destoyer?

[Taxman66]

I don't know for sure, you'd have to run a test via a hot seat game.
My opponents (so far) seem to want to save their subs for Sea Lion or to fake a Sea Lion.

The other option is once you find one just surround it outside it's vision range and let it hurt itself as runs into/gets surprised by a Destroyer.
Or bite the bullet and invest in a couple CVL ships and invest in Long Range Aircraft.
Or camp the ports when he goes back for supplies and upgrades. Also remember he has to go back to French or German ports to repair back to strength 10.

Also if Germany is investing heavily in subs, then he isn't spending it elsewhere (USSR, Egypt, Diplo, or Tech).

[room]

Torpedo boat once upgraded can just kill the sub in port... where they can't dive... Seems a bit well... strange

[LLv34Mika]

investing that much in ASW makes the British even weaker.
But I think it is enough if a sub with supply 0 stops diving. +1 destroyer attack vs subs would be a second tweak.

[jjdenver]

I think as in the real war, it's not necessary to try to eliminate SUB units completely. The supply level mechanic forces them to sortie, then return to port for supply. They don't do that much damage to convoy lines if the British build up their ASW progressively to level 2 then 3 and maybe higher depending on sub threat.

If we focus on sinking all subs sure it's hard just like it was in the actual war - but if we look at overall impact on the game - British just have to escort their troop transports, harass subs to reduce their supply levels (which causes them to have to return to base very slowly), do some damage so they have to spend an extra turn to get from 8 strength back to 10 strength in a high level port.

I think overall if we remove an objective of completely destroying sub units then the game models the war in the Atlantic pretty well. As British you should have to continue to take convoy line losses throughout the war, to send your destroyers out again and again and again and again to protect your convoy lines and troop transports, and continue to invest in ASW tech. Forget about sinking subs just drive them off and harass them. Seems realistic?

[IrishGuards]

Well lads, some great points and strategies, as I have said before the 1st problem I see is that the subs
should be random somewhat in placement for turn 1, this way the UK which has convoy lines at war start, which they did not
leads to a more interesting battle of the Atlantic.

the biggest problem subs face is getting subs1 or elite reinfs, which if the allies dont confront with ASW at war start they will have massive problems by 41, to which the allies can build maratime bmrs, MTs, CVs, lots of choices.

in storms if you know where abouts the subs are use your Cls and CAs, if they find said subs they do 2 damage or so
in clear weather use your CVs, as long as your not losing massive convoys mpps you should be ok.

the 39 and 40 use the french fleet to allied advantage, the axis must invest in naval warfare to realize subs potential.
now if you can bottle them up great, but subs can and do massive damage to surprised ships so allies have to be very careful.

for the naval aspects of the game, especially subs I would like to see a disabled designation, which would be realistic
and therefore solve lots of issues that arise.

just my thoughts,
thx
IG

[PvtBenjamin]

Making ALL reinforcements (USSR)/placements random (within a range) would be a major improvement to the game.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver


I think overall if we remove an objective of completely destroying sub units then the game models the war in the Atlantic pretty well. As British you should have to continue to take convoy line losses throughout the war, to send your destroyers out again and again and again and again to protect your convoy lines and troop transports, and continue to invest in ASW tech. Forget about sinking subs just drive them off and harass them. Seems realistic?

I see the logic in this, but the problem for me would be the sheer tedium of having to move all my anti-sub assets every turn. 1 of the reasons why I stopped playing axis was the tedium of moving the subs every turn - that and the fact that I often forgot to move them [:'(]

[PvtBenjamin]

think as in the real war, it's not necessary to try to eliminate SUB units completely. The supply level mechanic forces them to sortie, then return to port for supply. They don't do that much damage to convoy lines if the British build up their ASW progressively to level 2 then 3 and maybe higher depending on sub threat.

If we focus on sinking all subs sure it's hard just like it was in the actual war - but if we look at overall impact on the game - British just have to escort their troop transports, harass subs to reduce their supply levels (which causes them to have to return to base very slowly), do some damage so they have to spend an extra turn to get from 8 strength back to 10 strength in a high level port.

I think overall if we remove an objective of completely destroying sub units then the game models the war in the Atlantic pretty well. As British you should have to continue to take convoy line losses throughout the war, to send your destroyers out again and again and again and again to protect your convoy lines and troop transports, and continue to invest in ASW tech. Forget about sinking subs just drive them off and harass them. Seems realistic?

NO it doesn't, 750 u boats were sunk mainly 43-44

I just attacked a 3 str lv 0 sub with 3 10str lv 2 allied destroyers got 3 dives WOW!!!!!!!!

[Taxman66]

That stinks, but not completely out of the realm of unbelievable chances (20% chance three hits in a row).