More Questions

[jcrohio]

Played a few more games the last couple of days and have the following questions/observations.

1. Peter. I know I have asked this before but it really showed in the last game I played and I am going to ask it again.
I am playing on Very Hard difficulty level. Just finished a game where every turn had leaders out of control but very few
squads out of control. One turn had every leader on the board out of control and every squad on the board in control. From
the manual: "First a personnel leader (with the highest rank first) in a hex performs his C&C Check, if he passes then all
the personnel units in the same hex (including all leaders with the same or lower rank) and within LOS of two hexes are
automatically in Command. This process is repeated for all hexes with a leader in them. Personnel units that are not stacked
with a good order leader or are not in LOS of a leader that passed its C&C check must check for C&C on their own individually."
This would lead me to believe that if leaders are failing their command checks then units are checking on their own and that
this should result in squads out of control.

2. I had a leader in a stack get eliminated during the Defensive Fire Phase. Both units in the stack with leader were
unaffected. Does the loss of a leader effect the other units in his hex?

3. I have been messing with the editor and don't understand the roll of designating the Experience level of a squad or
leader. Does this correlate to the ELR rating on ASLSK scenarios and if so how? For example if the ELR is 3 does that mean
the units are Seasoned? Average?

4. A couple of times in the last couple games I played during the Defensive Fire Phase I used First Fire on enemy units in
clear hexes with no hindrances. LOS was completely clear and the target hex was open ground. Sometimes (not always) no
Residual Fire was left. Is there something causing this?

5. Lastly I had a Sergeant C* Leader get wounded. He was casualty reduced to a Sergeant C. I thought they lost morale as well
as leadership when wounded. Should he have gone down to a Corporal D?

Thanks for any help
Jack

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: jcrohio

Played a few more games the last couple of days and have the following questions/observations.

1. Peter. I know I have asked this before but it really showed in the last game I played and I am going to ask it again.
I am playing on Very Hard difficulty level. Just finished a game where every turn had leaders out of control but very few
squads out of control. One turn had every leader on the board out of control and every squad on the board in control. From
the manual: "First a personnel leader (with the highest rank first) in a hex performs his C&C Check, if he passes then all
the personnel units in the same hex (including all leaders with the same or lower rank) and within LOS of two hexes are
automatically in Command. This process is repeated for all hexes with a leader in them. Personnel units that are not stacked
with a good order leader or are not in LOS of a leader that passed its C&C check must check for C&C on their own individually."
This would lead me to believe that if leaders are failing their command checks then units are checking on their own and that
this should result in squads out of control.

2. I had a leader in a stack get eliminated during the Defensive Fire Phase. Both units in the stack with leader were
unaffected. Does the loss of a leader effect the other units in his hex?

3. I have been messing with the editor and don't understand the roll of designating the Experience level of a squad or
leader. Does this correlate to the ELR rating on ASLSK scenarios and if so how? For example if the ELR is 3 does that mean
the units are Seasoned? Average?

4. A couple of times in the last couple games I played during the Defensive Fire Phase I used First Fire on enemy units in
clear hexes with no hindrances. LOS was completely clear and the target hex was open ground. Sometimes (not always) no
Residual Fire was left. Is there something causing this?

5. Lastly I had a Sergeant C* Leader get wounded. He was casualty reduced to a Sergeant C. I thought they lost morale as well
as leadership when wounded. Should he have gone down to a Corporal D?

Thanks for any help
Jack

1) First the highest ranging Leader makes Command check, if he passes and all lower ranking leaders as well as all squads/half-squads and crews are automatically in command. If for example, you only have one leader and squads in a hex, first the command check is done against the leader if he fails then all squads check in command by themselves.

2) If a leader is killed then all units in the same hex perform morale check.

3) Experience in the game is similar to ELR in ASL, it is not 1:1 mapping.

4) Residual firepower marker applies only during the enemy Movement Segment and not in the player Defensive Fire Segment.

5) If a leader gets wounded, the morale and the leadership might get affected but I do not change the counter art.

[jcrohio]

1. Thanks for the answer. This is the only thing in the game I am having trouble understanding. I assume it is harder for a
squad to check for command by itself. I assume the leaders get some kind of bonus to their checks. But I am not seeing this.
I am consistently seeing leaders not in command and all the squads in command. I would think that if the leaders are out of
command a lot of the squads would be out of command.

2. Thanks

3. Thanks

4. I'm sorry. It was the Enemy Movement Phase not the Defensive Fire Phase when no Residual Fire was left. Let me rephrase
the question. A couple of times in the last couple games I played during the enemy Movement Phase I used First Fire on
enemy units in clear hexes with no hindrances. LOS was completely clear and the target hex was open ground. Sometimes (not
always) no Residual Fire was left. Is there something causing this?

5. Thanks

Thanks for your help
Jack

[Peter Fisla]

jcrohio, here is the definition of "Residual Firepower" in the glossary section of the manual:

Residual Firepower: In an enemy Movement Segment, when an enemy unit is moving that is attacked by a friendly personnel unit, a MG/Molotov projector sw or Ordnance/AFV MA fring HE round can potentially leave Residual Firepower marker in the moving enemy unit target hex. A friendly personnel unit and Molotov projector will leave residual frepower marker automatically in the moving enemy unit target hex. A friendly MG sw, Ordnance/AFV MA fring HE (that keeps its ROF after it fred), can choose to either keep its ROF or not. If the friendly MG sw, Ordnance/AFV fring HE decides to not to keep its ROF then a residual fre marker is placed in the moving enemy unit target hex. Any enemy personnel unit/Crew Exposed AFV moving through a hex with Residual Fire marker will be automatically attacked by the fre marker. Residual Firepower marker simulates a unit/weapon focusing its fre only at a specifc hex on the map, ignoring all other hexes for the remainder of the Movement Segment.

[jcrohio]

Peter. I sense some frustration on your part and bluntly I am a little frustrated also. I don't know if I am doing
a bad job of communicating with you or not.

Let me start by saying that I own and play the first two starter kits (don't have the third so know nothing about
armor). I downloaded a copy of the ASL solitaire rules from the internet and read the Command & Control rules. So
I understand Interdiction and Command & Control (at least as far my interpretations of the ASL rules go).

Secondly I really am enjoying this game. I am amazed at all you have gotten into the game. As I reread the two
starter kits rules that I have, there was very little not in there. That being said, I saw two things while playing
that I still don't feel are quite correct. I ran a bunch of experiments tonight and I am convinced that there is a
very very small issue with Interdiction and a larger issue with Command & Control. Again, at least as far as my
interpretations of the ASLSK and Solitaire rules go.

I ran a test scenario about 30 times and found that occasionaly if a firing unit Cowers it does not leave
Interdiction. Once a firing unit did not Cower and still left no Interdiction. While it does happen it is not often.
(The firer I used had a firepower of six, was in normal range, and was elite so he would not Cower of the IFT).

More importantly was the Command & Control issue. I have set up the third ASLSK starter kit #1 scenario for me to
play and set it up to play the Americans using Very Hard Difficulty. Every squad is within two hexes with a clear
LOS to a leader. I started the scenario ten times and almost always at least one leader and sometimes multiple
leaders were out of Command & Control. The leaders had very high morale and if the Solitaire Rules are correct get
a -1 DRM to their Command & Control die roll (I know using ASL terms but it is the easiest way to describe it).
Never in all ten startups was a squad out of Command & Control even when multiple leaders were. There was one time
when three out four leaders were out of Command & Control and every squad was in Command & Control. The TotH manual
states "Personnel units that are not stacked with a good order leader or are not in LOS of a leader that passed its
C&C check must check for C&C on their own individually." I feel out of 14 squads, each with a morale of six, some
would have failed their Command & Control checks.

So my observations/questions:
1. Do the leaders fail their Command & Control rolls to often?
2. Are the squads in Command & Control as long as they are within two hexes of a leader whether he is in
Command & Control or not?

When I read the Command & Control rules for Solitaire ASL I feel good leaders especially if you give them a -1 DRM
should be in Command & Control most of the time. But I also feel when leaders do fail this roll the squads that rely
on them should be at least sometimes out of Command & Control. Again, this is my interpretation of the Command &
Control rules. If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks for listening
Jack

[Peter Fisla]

Hi Jack, sorry...just too busy so I thought perhaps you did not read that part in the manual.

C&C rules work as I have tested them since quite early in the game development. Yes, when a Leader passes for command check, all units within the same hex and two hexes in LOS of the leader are in command as well. If an AFV is crew exposed within two hexes in LOS they pass as well, otherwise each AFV checks for command on its own.

[Gerry4321]

ORIGINAL: jcrohio

Peter. I sense some frustration on your part and bluntly I am a little frustrated also. I don't know if I am doing
a bad job of communicating with you or not.

Let me start by saying that I own and play the first two starter kits (don't have the third so know nothing about
armor). I downloaded a copy of the ASL solitaire rules from the internet and read the Command & Control rules. So
I understand Interdiction and Command & Control (at least as far my interpretations of the ASL rules go).

Secondly I really am enjoying this game. I am amazed at all you have gotten into the game. As I reread the two
starter kits rules that I have, there was very little not in there. That being said, I saw two things while playing
that I still don't feel are quite correct. I ran a bunch of experiments tonight and I am convinced that there is a
very very small issue with Interdiction and a larger issue with Command & Control. Again, at least as far as my
interpretations of the ASLSK and Solitaire rules go.

I ran a test scenario about 30 times and found that occasionaly if a firing unit Cowers it does not leave
Interdiction. Once a firing unit did not Cower and still left no Interdiction. While it does happen it is not often.
(The firer I used had a firepower of six, was in normal range, and was elite so he would not Cower of the IFT).

More importantly was the Command & Control issue. I have set up the third ASLSK starter kit #1 scenario for me to
play and set it up to play the Americans using Very Hard Difficulty. Every squad is within two hexes with a clear
LOS to a leader. I started the scenario ten times and almost always at least one leader and sometimes multiple
leaders were out of Command & Control. The leaders had very high morale and if the Solitaire Rules are correct get
a -1 DRM to their Command & Control die roll (I know using ASL terms but it is the easiest way to describe it).
Never in all ten startups was a squad out of Command & Control even when multiple leaders were. There was one time
when three out four leaders were out of Command & Control and every squad was in Command & Control. The TotH manual
states "Personnel units that are not stacked with a good order leader or are not in LOS of a leader that passed its
C&C check must check for C&C on their own individually." I feel out of 14 squads, each with a morale of six, some
would have failed their Command & Control checks.

So my observations/questions:
1. Do the leaders fail their Command & Control rolls to often?
2. Are the squads in Command & Control as long as they are within two hexes of a leader whether he is in
Command & Control or not?

When I read the Command & Control rules for Solitaire ASL I feel good leaders especially if you give them a -1 DRM
should be in Command & Control most of the time. But I also feel when leaders do fail this roll the squads that rely
on them should be at least sometimes out of Command & Control. Again, this is my interpretation of the Command &
Control rules. If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks for listening
Jack

"So my observations/questions:
1. Do the leaders fail their Command & Control rolls to often?"

I found this also. I know any kind f check is a dice roll. But I found it surprising how often a leader would fail but the squads would then pass their rolls.

Best wishes to Peter and all.

[UP844]

I also feel leaders appear to fail their C&C check a bit too often.

Without carrying out some tests, however, this just remains a feeling: I think I'm going to make a dedicated test scenario to see if it is possible to obtain some accurate data.

[jcrohio]

I was going to do the same but have not had time. The other thing that bothers me even more is that I have had numerous
turns where leaders failed their C&C checks but the units that they are supposed to be in "command" of (those within a 2
hex LOS) keep command. I know they than test for their own C&C but as long as they were in range of ANY leader, whether he
was in C&C or not, they always stayed in C&C. This included numerous conscript units as well which I would expect to not
always keep C&C once out of range of a in C&C leader.

[rico21]

47% at very hard difficulty.
Too much or not enough, i don't know and I don't care.
It took me ten minutes so do not tell me you do not have the time.[:D]

[UP844]

You all thought (and someone hoped) I was lost after the wonderful curves of the Spitfire... the news of my demise were greatly exaggerated.

I made some tests on C&C.

C-and-C test #1

I set up 24 German conscript squads (morale = 6) in four clusters with a D leader (morale = 7) in the center. The distance between cluster centers is 4 hexes, so that the units in each cluster are only influenced by the leader placed in the center of their cluster.

I launched the scenario and ran it for three full turns, in the 6 German administrative segments, these were the results of the C-and-C checks:

The leaders failed their C&C check 7 times out of 24 checks (~30%). The expected failure rate is 41.6%.

The units of the leaders failing their C&C check never once failed theirs. This should mean that the squads, with a morale level of 6, made 42 checks and passed them all. The probability of such occurrence is equal to 0.416^42 = 0.00000000000000010044304873 or 1.00443 * 10^-16.

C-and-C test #2

This time, I removed the four leaders, leaving the units leaderless.

Running the test scenario for three game turns as before.
The units failed their C&C check 14, 16, 15, 13, 14, 15 times out of 24 checks per turn.

The expected number of failed C&C checks is 0.583*24 = 14.

The overall number of failures is 87 out of 144 = ~ 60.4%

C-and-C test #3

During the performance of the #1 test, I noticed squads are listed before the leaders in the report window. Since I added the leaders after the squads, they were numbered as #24-27, while the squads were numbered #0-23. I wanted to verify if units are checked for C&C in accordance with their ID number, so I deleted and then replaced two squads and two leaders switching their places in the numerical order. The third test is identical to the #1 test, except that units are numbered as follows:
#0-1: German D leaders
#2-25: German conscript squads
#26-27: German D leaders

This time, the leaders failed their C&C check 9 times out of 24 checks (37.5%). The expected failure rate is 41.6%. Between test #1 and test #3, the leaders failed their C&C check 16 times out of 48 checks (33%), which is always a bit less than expected.

Again, the units of the leaders failing their C&C check never once failed theirs.

In the image below, there are three OOC leaders, but none of the units drawing C&C from them is OOC. Since the possibility of such occurrence is 0.416^18 = 1.392*10^-7, I think there is something wrong somewhere. It seems that squads make their C&C roll before leaders are checked.

[UP844]

Here are the three C&C test scenarios, if someone wants to give them a try.

[Peter Fisla]

First, the highest quality leaders make a command check. Example, So if present, Major goes first. He then checks if lower quality leaders are either in same hex, or within 2 hexes within los. If there are any leaders, then these lower quality leaders are automatically in command as well. If there are any leaders that are not in los of 2 hexes of the major then they have to check for command on their own. Then once all the leaders are processed, all squads/half-squads and crew personnel units that are stacked with leaders that passed command check, or are within 2 hexes in los for a good order leader that passed command check are automatically in command. If not, then each individual squad/half-squad/crew do command check on their own. All AFVs do check in command on their own.

I will check my code again to make sure, if it's all working. I will get back to you.

[UP844]

Thanks for the attention, Peter!

Then once all the leaders are processed, all squads/half-squads and crew personnel units that are stacked with leaders that passed command check, or are within 2 hexes in los for a good order leader that passed command check are automatically in command. If not, then each individual squad/half-squad/crew do command check on their own.

This is the part I think needs to be checked: in my tests, every time the leader was OOC, the Conscript squads were always in command: not even once I saw one of them failing its check, even tough the probability of such occurrence are infinitesimal. This is in stark contrast with the results I obtained when I removed the leaders (and every squad certainly has to check for C&C), and the percentage of OOC squads was more or less in line with what expected.

[Paullus]

I've verified the problem so Peter is checking his code to find the illusive little bug.

[jcrohio]

In reply to UB844 tests. Your results for the leaders are possibly even closer to normal. If Peter is following ASL Solitaire
rules, according to what I downloaded on the internet, leaders actually use a morale one greater than their normal morale when
checking for C&C. So in your first test your morale seven leaders, if this is true, would actually pass rolling an 8 or less
which should occur 72% of the time and fail 28% of the time. Very close to the 30% you had. I am probably screwing something
up so please check my math!!

The other major rule that I saw was that American MMC get the same bonus leaders get.

Jack

Another thought. What really caught my eye initially was that the scenario I was playing had two 9 morale leaders which were
out of C&C half the time. I was not tracking it so I could be off but I remember thinking this seemed way out of normal for
how I was interpreting the rules.

[UP844]

@jcrohio:

Thanks for the clarification: I spent whole nights playing SL/ASL until it was time to go to work (I was much younger [:D]), but i never played ASLSK, so I was unaware of the +1 morale for C&C purposes. In view of this, the results I obtained are quite in line with the expected ones: the probability of rolling a 8 or less is 72.2%: the leaders passed 32 out of 48 tests (66.6%), and I think the 5% difference is more than acceptable with so few tests.

I'll make a quick test with American MMC.

In my PC-illitterate opinion, the squads that are within 2 hexes from a leader check their C&C status before the leaders themselves. I arrived at this conclusion from two facts:
1) the results of squad checks are listed before the results of the leaders' checks
2) the possibility of having not even one single squad failing its C&C check are infinitesimal (in fact, where no leaders are present, the percentage of OOC squads is quite close to the expected one).

[UP844]

Just made another test, setting up 100 US 1st line squads (morale = 6) and running the game for 5 turns (10 Admin Segments).

The squads failed their C&C check 48, 36, 43, 34, 42, 35, 46, 43, 44 and 42 times out of 100, i.e. 413 times out of 1000 checks (41.3%).

The probability to fail the C&C check with morale = 6 is 58.33%, with morale = 7 is 41.66%, so it looks like the US MMC +1 morale bonus for C&C purposes is implemented (never underestimate Peter's dedication [&o])

[jcrohio]

Glad my math was correct. One small clarification. The modifiers for leaders and American squads are not part of ASLSK. They
are part of the full ASL Solitaire system which Peter as implemented with his game for C&C reasons.

I personally like playing on Very Hard as I feel that helps equalize the game versus the AI. I don't like making the AI better
by simply giving it a bunch more units. Right now I am enjoying this challenge.

[Peter Fisla]

Sorry jcrohio, you were right and I was wrong There was something wrong with the Command and Control rules, I have just fixed it. You can get the latest ALPHA 1.0.98 build here:

tm.asp?m=4435081

Thank you all for your help! UP844, rico21 etc...

Cheers!

Peter