overrun using 2d10

[4personalbusiness]

Touched a nerve there.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I never felt the +16 easy to reach, and hey IF in one action one has used the O-Chit; had enough planes (and the luck) getting to flip a whole stack of 3 pieces (that in their sum is worth 10 - rare circumstance to be honest that 3 pieces equal to 10), that's well worth a successful operation (and still it means 3 out of X offensive actions are spent for the overrun itself already).

Also Fractional Odds are relative there, you need to reach +16.
+15.9 does not cut it for an Overrun. There is no final rounding, you have to get the precise ratio or be above it.
Also as it happens in open plains (or forest with railroad if using the optional for railroad movement) and one has placed only INF class units there, their mistake. Because even if assuming we got 3 flipped units, and only one of them is already a MECH or the like, it's an added -2.

I personally feel it's a design mistake that easen a lot the "sacrificial roadbump" strategy with low strength corps that cannot be sent OOS, making the overrun aspect mostly redundant.
Without an O-Chit in open plan and the like; to overrun a 3 strong unit you'd need pretty much 21 combat factors (+14) and the armour bonus of the stack. That's an overrun on a puny unit that it is rather rare to find in plains.
With the O-Chit you can overrun a stack that's worth the double, like 6 combat factors? But then we talking of an O-Chit.
If something is disorganized but still in supply you can overrun a 4 combat factor unit (INF or GARR or MIL). Still that requires that unit to be bombed (unless already disorganized for other reasons such as a retreat).

I truly do not see the problem of the +16. And to just effort there should be reward.

I'll just throw in my favorite overrun on the 2D10 table:

Using an Offensive chit to double a Blitz attack during land combat resolution (to get a guaranteed Blitz result) and saving some doubling factors for the advance after combat (to overrun a weaker unit in the secondary line). A 5 factor, disorganized INF HQ that is behind the front line (and was just used for HQ support) can be overrun by 3 units armor/mech units totaling 28 factors. E.g., 9x2 + 8 + 2 is quite feasible even early in the war. That only requires doubling one of the overrunning units! The result is usually a big beautiful hole in the line.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I never felt the +16 easy to reach, and hey IF in one action one has used the O-Chit; had enough planes (and the luck) getting to flip a whole stack of 3 pieces (that in their sum is worth 10 - rare circumstance to be honest that 3 pieces equal to 10), that's well worth a successful operation (and still it means 3 out of X offensive actions are spent for the overrun itself already).

Also Fractional Odds are relative there, you need to reach +16.
+15.9 does not cut it for an Overrun. There is no final rounding, you have to get the precise ratio or be above it.
Also as it happens in open plains (or forest with railroad if using the optional for railroad movement) and one has placed only INF class units there, their mistake. Because even if assuming we got 3 flipped units, and only one of them is already a MECH or the like, it's an added -2.

I personally feel it's a design mistake that easen a lot the "sacrificial roadbump" strategy with low strength corps that cannot be sent OOS, making the overrun aspect mostly redundant.
Without an O-Chit in open plan and the like; to overrun a 3 strong unit you'd need pretty much 21 combat factors (+14) and the armour bonus of the stack. That's an overrun on a puny unit that it is rather rare to find in plains.
With the O-Chit you can overrun a stack that's worth the double, like 6 combat factors? But then we talking of an O-Chit.
If something is disorganized but still in supply you can overrun a 4 combat factor unit (INF or GARR or MIL). Still that requires that unit to be bombed (unless already disorganized for other reasons such as a retreat).

I truly do not see the problem of the +16. And to just effort there should be reward.

I'll just throw in my favorite overrun on the 2D10 table:

Using an Offensive chit to double a Blitz attack during land combat resolution (to get a guaranteed Blitz result) and saving some doubling factors for the advance after combat (to overrun a weaker unit in the secondary line). A 5 factor, disorganized INF HQ that is behind the front line (and was just used for HQ support) can be overrun by 3 units armor/mech units totaling 28 factors. E.g., 9x2 + 8 + 2 is quite feasible even early in the war. That only requires doubling one of the overrunning units! The result is usually a big beautiful hole in the line.

That's indeed a very good way of punching a big hole into a frontline. I've done it myself to. Unfortunately, if one has ever experienced such an attack on you, one tends to make sure the HQ is either save for these kind of overruns, or is never alone in the hex...

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I never felt the +16 easy to reach, and hey IF in one action one has used the O-Chit; had enough planes (and the luck) getting to flip a whole stack of 3 pieces (that in their sum is worth 10 - rare circumstance to be honest that 3 pieces equal to 10), that's well worth a successful operation (and still it means 3 out of X offensive actions are spent for the overrun itself already).

Also Fractional Odds are relative there, you need to reach +16.
+15.9 does not cut it for an Overrun. There is no final rounding, you have to get the precise ratio or be above it.
Also as it happens in open plains (or forest with railroad if using the optional for railroad movement) and one has placed only INF class units there, their mistake. Because even if assuming we got 3 flipped units, and only one of them is already a MECH or the like, it's an added -2.

I personally feel it's a design mistake that easen a lot the "sacrificial roadbump" strategy with low strength corps that cannot be sent OOS, making the overrun aspect mostly redundant.
Without an O-Chit in open plan and the like; to overrun a 3 strong unit you'd need pretty much 21 combat factors (+14) and the armour bonus of the stack. That's an overrun on a puny unit that it is rather rare to find in plains.
With the O-Chit you can overrun a stack that's worth the double, like 6 combat factors? But then we talking of an O-Chit.
If something is disorganized but still in supply you can overrun a 4 combat factor unit (INF or GARR or MIL). Still that requires that unit to be bombed (unless already disorganized for other reasons such as a retreat).

I truly do not see the problem of the +16. And to just effort there should be reward.

I'll just throw in my favorite overrun on the 2D10 table:

Using an Offensive chit to double a Blitz attack during land combat resolution (to get a guaranteed Blitz result) and saving some doubling factors for the advance after combat (to overrun a weaker unit in the secondary line). A 5 factor, disorganized INF HQ that is behind the front line (and was just used for HQ support) can be overrun by 3 units armor/mech units totaling 28 factors. E.g., 9x2 + 8 + 2 is quite feasible even early in the war. That only requires doubling one of the overrunning units! The result is usually a big beautiful hole in the line.

That's indeed a very good way of punching a big hole into a frontline. I've done it myself to. Unfortunately, if one has ever experienced such an attack on you, one tends to make sure the HQ is either save for these kind of overruns, or is never alone in the hex...

Well, I did not know one could overrun during a breakthrough and that you could save a "doubling" for that. Glad I found out this way instead of having to learn about it the hard way. [;)]

[AlbertN]

Yes that's well possible, but it's quite rare to have times where you have that kind of combinations (That you can blitz in the open fields and then also have the weak unit filling the hole in the rearline).
In my WiF experiences I've had very limited situations where an overrun could happen, simply because they're predictable due to the fact the overrun itself does not require any rolling. And if one O-Chits for overrunning - it's only fair due to the O-Chit cost (that otherwise would be a hefty amount of fielded forces).

A typical example is Poland '39. Players know of the overrun, so no player deploys Poles in the open plains for instance.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I'll just throw in my favorite overrun on the 2D10 table:

Using an Offensive chit to double a Blitz attack during land combat resolution (to get a guaranteed Blitz result) and saving some doubling factors for the advance after combat (to overrun a weaker unit in the secondary line). A 5 factor, disorganized INF HQ that is behind the front line (and was just used for HQ support) can be overrun by 3 units armor/mech units totaling 28 factors. E.g., 9x2 + 8 + 2 is quite feasible even early in the war. That only requires doubling one of the overrunning units! The result is usually a big beautiful hole in the line.

I do not think a HQ used for HQ support is disorganized during the breakthrough step. The rule says it is disorganized after advancing after combat. Although it is still a nice thing to use breakthrough movement to overrun a HQ.


Cut from RAC: 11.16.3 HQ support (option 13)
....
An HQ that successfully provided HQ support becomes disorganized (only if it succeeded in providing HQ
support) after advancing after combat (see 11.16.5) regardless of the combat result.

[vicberg]

This is all skirting around the real issue. The base game was balanced. Played out different every time. Then Harry realized he was onto something and came out with Asia in Flames (which was ok, didn't unbalance too much), then Ships in Flames (destroyed the sub war), Planes in Flames (more counters), Cruisers in Flames (A lot more counters) and a lot more. 2D10, 3D10 (which I played and makes GE unstoppable). All the additions made the game unbalanced, so the changes we see in RAW8 are attempts to balance previous failures. 2D10 in RAW8 with a +14 modifier is an attempt to give GE a bit of a bump because with all the other chrome, the Allies have a huge advantage. That's kinda harsh but true.

In my vassal games now, I play base, plus Divisions (AIF) plus planes (because ships seems to never die anyway) and that's about it. But I'm still a believer in the base RAW7 game.

[gw15]

I agree. RAW7 is the best.