AA Question

[RedTaurus]

At Singapore I have an AA Regiment with 3.7" Mk II AA guns. They have a ceiling of 30,340 and an effect of 27. What does that "effect" number mean?

And is the a "sweet spot" for AA guns when it comes to range? Like maybe the 3.7 can't hit squat under 10k because the planes are to low and too fast, but from 11-15k they do fair, and from 16 to 21k they are really effective, and then somewhere around 28-30k they again start to have a hard time hitting anything.

I'm just trying to figure out if there's a mix of AA units that I want at a base that will be the most effective against enemy aircraft.

[Alfred]

Effect for any weapon is the potential damage which might be "dished" out if a hit is achieved.  Like all game weapon stats there are many different modifiers in the various combat algorithms which impact on this potential value so never get fixated on the value representing some absolute input into the algorithms.
 
The devs took into account all the relevant weapon characteristics in arriving at the various weapon stats.  The game algorithms themselves do not operate at the micro level of detail you mentioned.
 
If the enemy is flying at 20k' then you want flak guns with a ceiling of at least 20k.  If they are flying at 7k' you want flak guns with a 7k ceiling.  The more guns which can reach the altitude flown by the enemy the better off you are.
 
This thread deals with the details:
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/tm.asp?m=2456696&mpage=1&key=
 
but be aware that it explains what happens under the hood, you as the player basically have no ability to alter how the combat algorithms play out.
 
Alfred 

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RedTaurus

At Singapore I have an AA Regiment with 3.7" Mk II AA guns. They have a ceiling of 30,340 and an effect of 27. What does that "effect" number mean?

And is the a "sweet spot" for AA guns when it comes to range? Like maybe the 3.7 can't hit squat under 10k because the planes are to low and too fast, but from 11-15k they do fair, and from 16 to 21k they are really effective, and then somewhere around 28-30k they again start to have a hard time hitting anything.

I'm just trying to figure out if there's a mix of AA units that I want at a base that will be the most effective against enemy aircraft.

The 3.7" gun can definitely hit aircraft flying lower than 10K. I think the detection algorithm determines how much time the gun has to shoot, in that a lower altitude for the aircraft usually means detection is delayed and it gets closer before detection. Faster firing guns like the 37mm and 40 mm will be able to shoot more ammo off during the time the low altitude bomber is in range so they are best for that situation.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Effect for any weapon is the potential damage which might be "dished" out if a hit is achieved.  Like all game weapon stats there are many different modifiers in the various combat algorithms which impact on this potential value so never get fixated on the value representing some absolute input into the algorithms.

The devs took into account all the relevant weapon characteristics in arriving at the various weapon stats.  The game algorithms themselves do not operate at the micro level of detail you mentioned.

If the enemy is flying at 20k' then you want flak guns with a ceiling of at least 20k.  If they are flying at 7k' you want flak guns with a 7k ceiling.  The more guns which can reach the altitude flown by the enemy the better off you are.

This thread deals with the details:

http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/tm.asp?m=2456696&mpage=1&key=

but be aware that it explains what happens under the hood, you as the player basically have no ability to alter how the combat algorithms play out.

Alfred 

Thanks Alfred! Great find. Learned a lot! I had no idea the ceilings were a bit 'fuzzy' for AA.

BBfanboy posed a question recently in my AAR about AA from a base. He asked whether the base AA fires on aircraft attacking ships in TFs within the base hex. I had always thought it did, but tried to confirm this and couldn't find evidence.

I thought this might be covered in the linked thread, but sadly, it's not. Any ideas, Alfred, without hours of research to find the devs answers on it? [:)]

[Alfred]

Fuzzy flak ceilings are not the only fuzzy "ceilings" in the game.  This however must not be read as meaning the values shown can simply be disregarded.
 
Where fuzzyiness has been incorporated into AE it is there in order to keep players "honest".  Without the fuzzyiness a player knowing that the highest ceiling of the enemy flak guns is 9800 feet could simply fly at 10k and be certain of avoiding the flak altogether.  With the fuzziness there is a chance, not a particularly strong one but there nonetheless, that he will encounter some flak if he flies just above the ceiling.  On the other hand the fuzziness is not a never ending piece of string so if flown at 20k, the player will not encounter any flak at that location.
 
Terrestrial and naval flak is treated differently in the code.  Aircraft attacking a terrestrial target are exposed to all relevant terrestrial flak guns in the hex.  Aircraft attacking a task force are exposed only to flak guns on the approach side.  Approach from starboard and the port side flak guns cannot be brought to bear on the aircraft attacking from starboard.
 
Read my comments in this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3100412&mpage=1&key=flak&#3103431
 
Alfred 

[RedTaurus]

Thanks much Alfred, for the links and the answers. And to Obvert for the naval AA question. I hadn't thought of that one - I'm just trying to save a base from bombing runs. [:)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Effect for any weapon is the potential damage which might be "dished" out if a hit is achieved.  Like all game weapon stats there are many different modifiers in the various combat algorithms which impact on this potential value so never get fixated on the value representing some absolute input into the algorithms.

The devs took into account all the relevant weapon characteristics in arriving at the various weapon stats.  The game algorithms themselves do not operate at the micro level of detail you mentioned.

If the enemy is flying at 20k' then you want flak guns with a ceiling of at least 20k.  If they are flying at 7k' you want flak guns with a 7k ceiling.  The more guns which can reach the altitude flown by the enemy the better off you are.

This thread deals with the details:

http://www.matrixgames.com/FORUMS/tm.asp?m=2456696&mpage=1&key=

but be aware that it explains what happens under the hood, you as the player basically have no ability to alter how the combat algorithms play out.

Alfred 

Alfred is right on. The important thing is that you really should not be overthinking this stuff. If you have a 90mm battery at your base and know a little about the game and the war in general then you should know it is a good thing to have there. It works, and that is what is important to me. How it works-I leave up to the designers.

[rustysi]

The important thing is that you really should not be overthinking this stuff. If you have a 90mm battery at your base and know a little about the game and the war in general then you should know it is a good thing to have there. It works, and that is what is important to me. How it works-I leave up to the designers.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Fuzzy flak ceilings are not the only fuzzy "ceilings" in the game.  This however must not be read as meaning the values shown can simply be disregarded.

Where fuzzyiness has been incorporated into AE it is there in order to keep players "honest".  Without the fuzzyiness a player knowing that the highest ceiling of the enemy flak guns is 9800 feet could simply fly at 10k and be certain of avoiding the flak altogether.  With the fuzziness there is a chance, not a particularly strong one but there nonetheless, that he will encounter some flak if he flies just above the ceiling.  On the other hand the fuzziness is not a never ending piece of string so if flown at 20k, the player will not encounter any flak at that location.

Terrestrial and naval flak is treated differently in the code.  Aircraft attacking a terrestrial target are exposed to all relevant terrestrial flak guns in the hex.  Aircraft attacking a task force are exposed only to flak guns on the approach side.  Approach from starboard and the port side flak guns cannot be brought to bear on the aircraft attacking from starboard.

Read my comments in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3100412&mpage=1&key=flak&#3103431

Alfred 

Thanks. I'll have to revise my thinking, and planning. It's a bit odd that the big guns don't hit incoming, but it's also odd that they can fly over hexes with enormous amounts of flak or CAP completely untouched, so I guess it is what it is. [:)]

[Dili]

What i think does not make sense but "it is what it is" is that a docked TF is not protected by port AA but a ship just in the port bay much further from port installations is.

[rustysi]

Something I'd like to add here, if no one has noticed before. I have seen heavy flak guns engage craft that are unloading an invasion force.

[Dili]

Yes, probably because of their range,also maybe they are also classified as DP guns.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Fuzzy flak ceilings are not the only fuzzy "ceilings" in the game.  This however must not be read as meaning the values shown can simply be disregarded.

Where fuzzyiness has been incorporated into AE it is there in order to keep players "honest".  Without the fuzzyiness a player knowing that the highest ceiling of the enemy flak guns is 9800 feet could simply fly at 10k and be certain of avoiding the flak altogether.  With the fuzziness there is a chance, not a particularly strong one but there nonetheless, that he will encounter some flak if he flies just above the ceiling.  On the other hand the fuzziness is not a never ending piece of string so if flown at 20k, the player will not encounter any flak at that location.

Terrestrial and naval flak is treated differently in the code.  Aircraft attacking a terrestrial target are exposed to all relevant terrestrial flak guns in the hex.  Aircraft attacking a task force are exposed only to flak guns on the approach side.  Approach from starboard and the port side flak guns cannot be brought to bear on the aircraft attacking from starboard.

Read my comments in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3100412&mpage=1&key=flak?

Alfred 

Thanks. I'll have to revise my thinking, and planning. It's a bit odd that the big guns don't hit incoming, but it's also odd that they can fly over hexes with enormous amounts of flak or CAP completely untouched, so I guess it is what it is. [:)]

Not really that odd.

In AE aircraft meet neither enemy CAP nor flak overflying any hex on the ingress and egress. Combat occurs only at the destination hex itself. A task force which is not docked can, in abstract terms, be viewed as being 39.5 nautical miles away from any terrestrial flak guns and therefore very much out of range of those flak guns. Similarly the aircraft can, in abstract terms, be viewed as approaching the task force completely over water.

The amount of computational power required to extend combat to all overflown hexes on the ingress and egress is huge. Not only would it necessitate a major hardware upgrade to make AE semi playable in terms of turn resolution times, the coding effort would also be enormous. Those on the forum who promise this can be easily incorporated into a PTO game like AE are just talking nonsense.

Alfred

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The amount of computational power required to extend combat to all overflown hexes on the ingress and egress is huge. Not only would it necessitate a major hardware upgrade to make AE semi playable in terms of turn resolution times, the coding effort would also be enormous. Those on the forum who promise this can be easily incorporated into a PTO game like AE are just talking nonsense.

Alfred

To those who might debate this statement, consider first the level of the model being used in AE compared to other games that do compute the ingress/egress. The other games that I am aware of use an aggregation of each side and then only a few (many times just one) random 'roll' that will determine all the outcomes (kill/damage/rtb/etc). For a summary of Ian's model, search back about 7 years ... it is a VERY different model based upon his experience.