Miller (J) vs Mr Kane (A)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

At Changsha he has the Heavy Urban terrain advantage too, which has a defensive value of x4... From page 195: "Fortifications enhance the defensive fire of ground units and also make defenders harder to hit; therefore, defenders are given some advantages in combat."

Some of the formites seem to think that just means you have to have four times the AV value in your stack. I think you still want more AV (I always like to have the biggest hammer) but you can suppress some of that terrain advantage by using bombardment, recon, and air support. Or you can try to surround the hex and starve them out but that takes forever and a day. In looking at the combat it looks like you have no tanks in your stack?

Umm - I wanted to add - if you attack the enemy airfields it causes damage and fixing the damage eats up supplies.

I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

[witpqs]

Tanks are good at knocking down fortifications and should help as mentioned. Also, can you get more artillery in there? Massed artillery might help as it will suppress defenders during your assault.

[Miller]

26th-28th Feb 42

Nothing of any real note over this period, so onto the main event, CHANGSHA.

I now have 3200AV there (300 of it tanks) enough HQ support and art units. The majority of the divs are 100% prepped with 0 disruption. He has no forts left and I have been bombing the airfield daily with 150 2E a/c to keep it that way. He has about 2200AV in place. Deliberate attack set for next turn and all 2E a/c switched to ground unit bombing to hopefully get some disruption up among them. I have made sure all my ground units leaders are the best I could find. If this does not take the base then I'm going to cry. Fingers crossed[&o]

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

At Changsha he has the Heavy Urban terrain advantage too, which has a defensive value of x4... From page 195: "Fortifications enhance the defensive fire of ground units and also make defenders harder to hit; therefore, defenders are given some advantages in combat."

Some of the formites seem to think that just means you have to have four times the AV value in your stack. I think you still want more AV (I always like to have the biggest hammer) but you can suppress some of that terrain advantage by using bombardment, recon, and air support. Or you can try to surround the hex and starve them out but that takes forever and a day. In looking at the combat it looks like you have no tanks in your stack?

Umm - I wanted to add - if you attack the enemy airfields it causes damage and fixing the damage eats up supplies.

I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Are you referring to this thread? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3805270 (I so hate this search engine... [:o])

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

At Changsha he has the Heavy Urban terrain advantage too, which has a defensive value of x4... From page 195: "Fortifications enhance the defensive fire of ground units and also make defenders harder to hit; therefore, defenders are given some advantages in combat."

Some of the formites seem to think that just means you have to have four times the AV value in your stack. I think you still want more AV (I always like to have the biggest hammer) but you can suppress some of that terrain advantage by using bombardment, recon, and air support. Or you can try to surround the hex and starve them out but that takes forever and a day. In looking at the combat it looks like you have no tanks in your stack?

Umm - I wanted to add - if you attack the enemy airfields it causes damage and fixing the damage eats up supplies.

I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Construction work is not repair work.

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: witpqs



I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Construction work is not repair work.

True but Section 9.4.2 is called "Base Construction and Repair" and it states clearly in that section that engineers are used both for construction and repair. I'm not trying to be a dick; If I'm wrong I just want to know the correct process. [:)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

At Changsha he has the Heavy Urban terrain advantage too, which has a defensive value of x4... From page 195: "Fortifications enhance the defensive fire of ground units and also make defenders harder to hit; therefore, defenders are given some advantages in combat."

Some of the formites seem to think that just means you have to have four times the AV value in your stack. I think you still want more AV (I always like to have the biggest hammer) but you can suppress some of that terrain advantage by using bombardment, recon, and air support. Or you can try to surround the hex and starve them out but that takes forever and a day. In looking at the combat it looks like you have no tanks in your stack?

Umm - I wanted to add - if you attack the enemy airfields it causes damage and fixing the damage eats up supplies.

I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Are you referring to this thread? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3805270 (I so hate this search engine... [:o])

"Construction" yes, but not repair.

I don't think that's the thread, feels like it was more recent. It's one of those cases where I had it wrong basically forever, maybe because I feel repairs should consume supply. Sorry I don't have a link, I would have to search.

[Miller]

1st Mar 42

Well, I'm crying:

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 104446 troops, 1070 guns, 767 vehicles, Assault Value = 3237

Defending force 83956 troops, 447 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2153

Japanese adjusted assault: 3351

Allied adjusted defense: 3377

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
9079 casualties reported
Squads: 106 destroyed, 572 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 122 disabled
Guns lost 72 (2 destroyed, 70 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
7791 casualties reported
Squads: 237 destroyed, 250 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 179 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 55 disabled
Guns lost 47 (1 destroyed, 46 disabled)

Assaulting units:
3rd Division
40th Division
9th Tank Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
13th Division
6th Division
32nd Division
36th Division
58th Division
15th Division
8th Division
11th Tank Regiment
12th Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
11th Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion

Defending units:
53rd Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
87th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
20th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
6th Construction Regiment
79th Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
5th Construction Regiment
19th Group Army
17th Chinese Base Force
27th Group Army
6th War Area
9th War Area
29th Group Army
18th Chinese Base Force

I'm running out of ideas now. I notice my tank units take no losses, perhaps I should just attack with them to get his disruption up then attack with the rest the day after? Opinions?

Elsewhere in Java I take Surabaya and Malang with a split up division then order the div to reform and move back up to Batavia to assist in taking Bandoeng. I've ordered another deliberate attack there this turn I just hope it does not turn into another Changsha. I have less than one month of the amphibious bonus left and I still have to take eastern Borneo, the Celebes, Timor and PNG, then begin the tedious task of back filling all the southern PI bases...

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: witpqs



I had thought so but (IIRC) that is wrong as was somewhat recently clarified by Alfred. It is still important to do for two other reasons: a) a base must be at 0 damage before fortification building can be done, so keeping the base damaged will prevent forts being repaired, and b) some hits are 'airbase/port supply hits' and destroy a variable amount of supply directly. Attacking the airfield at Changsha every turn is a good idea.

Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Are you referring to this thread? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3805270 (I so hate this search engine... [:o])

"Construction" yes, but not repair.

I don't think that's the thread, feels like it was more recent. It's one of those cases where I had it wrong basically forever, maybe because I feel repairs should consume supply. Sorry I don't have a link, I would have to search.

I found what you are talking about from his Logistics paper. Thanks for the heads up; I've been wrong for a long time and that's just not right... lol

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

Here's the link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2878790

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: Miller

1st Mar 42

Well, I'm crying:

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 104446 troops, 1070 guns, 767 vehicles, Assault Value = 3237

Defending force 83956 troops, 447 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2153

Japanese adjusted assault: 3351

Allied adjusted defense: 3377

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
9079 casualties reported
Squads: 106 destroyed, 572 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 63 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 122 disabled
Guns lost 72 (2 destroyed, 70 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
7791 casualties reported
Squads: 237 destroyed, 250 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 179 disabled
Engineers: 15 destroyed, 55 disabled
Guns lost 47 (1 destroyed, 46 disabled)

Assaulting units:
3rd Division
40th Division
9th Tank Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
13th Division
6th Division
32nd Division
36th Division
58th Division
15th Division
8th Division
11th Tank Regiment
12th Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
11th Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion

Defending units:
53rd Chinese Corps
10th Chinese Corps
87th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps
74th Chinese Corps
20th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
6th Construction Regiment
79th Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
5th Construction Regiment
19th Group Army
17th Chinese Base Force
27th Group Army
6th War Area
9th War Area
29th Group Army
18th Chinese Base Force

I'm running out of ideas now. I notice my tank units take no losses, perhaps I should just attack with them to get his disruption up then attack with the rest the day after? Opinions?

Elsewhere in Java I take Surabaya and Malang with a split up division then order the div to reform and move back up to Batavia to assist in taking Bandoeng. I've ordered another deliberate attack there this turn I just hope it does not turn into another Changsha. I have less than one month of the amphibious bonus left and I still have to take eastern Borneo, the Celebes, Timor and PNG, then begin the tedious task of back filling all the southern PI bases...

Any bonuses from HQ planning? How are supplies for your stack? You can fly in extra supplies with Transports.

[fabertong]

I'm not sure you should be crying......

You missed 1-1 by a hair...

In China if the allies defend in Cities...... I'm always happy.

Japan has supply and air power......and time....don't worry about false deadlines.

Train air groups and kill Chinese.....

[durnedwolf]

Mmmm - Fabertong is right. If you had done a shock attack you'd have probably taken the hex. And you killed better than 2:1 his squads. I'd rest a bit, make sure supplies are good and disruption drops down. and then give it a shock attack.

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: fabertong

I'm not sure you should be crying......

You missed 1-1 by a hair...

In China if the allies defend in Cities...... I'm always happy.

Japan has supply and air power......and time....don't worry about false deadlines.

Train air groups and kill Chinese.....

Hi David hope you are well. Would 1:1 have made any difference? I thought I would need 2:1 to kick him out? And with this being scn 1 with pdu off I don't have that much air power at the moment, about 80% of my army 2E are employed in China.

[Miller]

2nd Mar 42

My attack at Bandoeng fails but he is showing (-) for supply so that siege should end soon. As an experiment I have ordered an attack there with just the tank unit present to see how it plays out, if its favourable it might be worth trying it at Changsha...

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: Miller

2nd Mar 42

My attack at Bandoeng fails but he is showing (-) for supply so that siege should end soon. As an experiment I have ordered an attack there with just the tank unit present to see how it plays out, if its favourable it might be worth trying it at Changsha...

In China there is no defense against Japanese tanks. On the flip side, there is not much defense on the Japanese side either.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf



Really? Section 9.4.2 (page 215) says that "Construction work consumes supplies, and if a base is low on supplies, construction effort will slow accordingly." Can you toss me a link to Alfred's post? Alfred is normally spot on so I'd definitely like to read his thoughts on this subject. [:)]

Are you referring to this thread? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3805270 (I so hate this search engine... [:o])

"Construction" yes, but not repair.

I don't think that's the thread, feels like it was more recent. It's one of those cases where I had it wrong basically forever, maybe because I feel repairs should consume supply. Sorry I don't have a link, I would have to search.

I found what you are talking about from his Logistics paper. Thanks for the heads up; I've been wrong for a long time and that's just not right... lol

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

Here's the link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2878790

Thanks. Alfred obviously linked to that in the thread where he noted my mistaken impression, but I finally bookmarked that thing.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf



I found what you are talking about from his Logistics paper. Thanks for the heads up; I've been wrong for a long time and that's just not right... lol

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

Here's the link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2878790

In my experience, the type of terrain influences, as it should be, the construction process, meaning a more difficult terrain, and maybe even extreme weather conditions, slow the construction pace - thus indirectly the supply consumption I guess;

[zuluhour]

I see this as a Japanese victory, a battle won. While your disablements are high, you can rotate
fresh troops in and out. I doubt China can. For me the measure of victory was in squads destroyed.
Winning ain't always cheap.

[Lowpe]

If you do attack with tanks only, make sure all your units bombard to support the attack.

Another option is to shock with tanks, deliberate attack with infantry, bombard with artillery. Keep bombing and bombarding to keep the Chinese disrupted and forts suppressed. This would most likely be my choice after resting for 2-3 days.

Important information not included is your disruption and fatigue and unit disablements so YMMV.

PS: I doublechecked and my version of stock, latest beta, doesn't include Symons air mod.

[crsutton]

I consider that to be a very good and acceptable Japanese attack. Without forts and his low experience and poor leadership, he will crack in a few turns and when he does crack and retreat his casualties will be very severe. This is how Japan wins in China. Once the Chinese start to crack their units do not recover and they have no ability to replace the massive guns and devices that they lose after a retreat. If the Japanese do it right by 1943 Chinese troops can't even benefit from the ample supply of infantry replacements as there is usually not enough supply anywhere to take replacements. As the Allies, I just hate playing the Chinese. Any good Japanese player is going to eat them for lunch.