From my multiplayer game (i'am in mid 1944), i find very hard to destroy german tanks. There is no way i can attrit the massive german tank production.
it is pointless.
Winning WITE requires successfull encirclements. without them, there is no way to win.
Does anyone succeed as german in 1941 or 1942 without encirclement? No.
It's the same for the russians from mid 1943 to end war.
But as defender, knowing this point, you have to adapt your way of defence.
Why fight against strongest, fastest German units that get so much bonuses to their morale? Focus on much weaker German infantry and his army will wither on the vine, due to lack of manpower for replacements. Panzer divisions cannot be everywhere.
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Yes, I concur they are "SUPERMEN" in the current rendition of WITE 1.0
When you reach 85+ morale and/or experience you become superman with the system that is in place. Retreat losses, attrition losses, combat losses - all are reduced to minimum values because of that. With their bonuses to NM, panzer divs remain for a very long time in the too high morale/experience region of the 0-100 scale.
Losses are higher in the next patch, but these things have to be done in miniscule steps. Perhaps some ceiling on effective morale/experience would be a good idea to prevent tiny losses.
maybe reducing German bonuses to armored and motorized divisions could be a solution. in 1942 the bonus is +10 for panzers, +20 for ss and +25 for GD. to divide by 2 these bonuses could make these divisions more "human"
Once again Morvael is reading my mind... since he is looking at this issue.
I agree with HardLuckYetAgain, but I don't think he goes far enough. I have played the Grand Campaign scenario now for five years over and over again as the Russians versus Wheat, who is a "Master Level" Panzer Ball Player. (Through all the patch versions since 1.07.)
The one thing that is glaringly apparent is that, the standard initial morale settings, are entirely too strong in favor of the Germans in 1941-42. The Russian units are incapable of attacking or even penetrating German controlled hexes at that standard initial high differential.
IF you use the standard settings and play the game without the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1" options, the situation is made impossible, because those two options are the only settings that allow for any Russian attacks at all during 1941 winter... and without making those attacks, the Russians will suffer the well documented "snowball effect" downhill from there.
The fact is, given the current state of the game, there is no point for the Russian player to do anything other than retreat during 1941-42, except during the 41 "extreme blizzard". Using the standard morale settings and other than attacking during extreme blizzard, all Russian units smaller than Corp size are basically nothing but speed bumps that are going to get pocketed, if they stand and fight. (And here I would note that Morvael and Denniss greatly improved the game when they tried to fix the pocket "insta-death" of Russian units in the earlier patch versions.)
I have not yet given up attempting to manage the standard game settings by judicious Russian "fighting withdrawal"... but I am at the point where I have to concede that there is no "contest" here, unless you alter the initial game settings by reducing the Germans and raising the Russians. I don't know yet what a balanced change should be, but I'm guessing +5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point. Maybe, just maybe, this will slow the "Panzer Ball through butter"... but I'm not sure as we have not tried it yet with the latest patch.
The real problem is one of balance... since reducing the German strength in 41-42 in order to make it more reflective of reality must not go too far or it will penalize the German late game too much, while overly boosting the Russians. This is made more complex by the fact that the choice of using the "extreme blizzard" or "1-1=2-1" options completely changes the game, requiring different settings to make for a balanced game.
On the other hand, if you're entertained more by the myth of German Panzer "invinciblity"... then game on with the standard settings. Just accept that Leningrad and Moscow will be overrun in 41 and the Russians will need to run to the Urals before they can attack (unless you use the "extreme blizzard" and "1-1=2-1").
ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
+5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point
That is the easiest solution to implement, without touching other parts of the code.
Perhaps seeing how NM is the crucial element used to balance the game it has some merit, the difference between both sides NM at the extremes (1941/2 - 1944/5) should be slightly reduced.
ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
+5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point
That is the easiest solution to implement, without touching other parts of the code.
Perhaps seeing how NM is the crucial element used to balance the game it has some merit, the difference between both sides NM at the extremes (1941/2 - 1944/5) should be slightly reduced.
I'm thinking you are correct. (As usual... [&o][&o][&o] )
The game works best when it follows the historical flows of the war. When one side is doing dramatically better, the game has no tools to adjust to the current situation on the board (i.e. Soviets successful in 1941 and on the offense - no tools to repair rail, no effective mech units; Germans successful in 1943+ - artificial crumble in unit quality that are defending the Volga).
The game has also very limited tools to manage this tide flow of each game, with the exception of 1941, with very interesting mechanics of turn 1, blizzard, and some others (+1 att?). After March 1942 the playing field evens out, there are no scheduled scenarios/game changers that players need to take into account in the future. The only (effective) tool that the game has to nudge the players to the Battle of Berlin 1945 is the National Morale changes. For me it feels very forced and artificial, the best part of the game is the extended Barbarossa.
As much as I would like to get rid of the NM system and give control over the gameflow to something the players can manage (manpower/equipment availability? - a huge topic for another discussion), right now changing the NM could have a huge and unknown impact on the game.
Basing the game rules on subjective premises like "The Soviets should win everytiem cuz they won irl" or "The Germans should win everytiem cuz it was Hitler who dragged them down" (and many more) does not lead anywhere. The game is supposed to be fun and have about 50% winrates for either side. The history is a great inspiration for WITE, but sometimes is also its biggest burden.
Gamesaurus, we should play. I'm getting the impression that the Germans have too tough of a time of it in 1942 if the Soviets put up a good fight forward in 1941 and preserve their manpower production, at least under the current beta patch.
Maybe wait until the next patch comes out and see if there have been some modifications?
"Put up a good fight forward in 41 and preserve their manpower..." ??? [:D][:D][:D] You haven't played a Panzer Baller yet, have you...
One GC game with Wheat as Germans will teach you why that is wishful thinking. The only fighting you will be doing in 1941 are battles that cannot be avoided because you can't retreat fast enough.
The only other battles will be at certain places you have to sacrifice troops to delay German advance in order to buy time to evacuate your factories.
Other than that, you will be running for the Urals and Baku to buy time to convert to Corps and organize the Russian Army 2.0.
There simply is no "good fight forward in 41" for the Russians... unless by "good fight" you mean trying to maximize the length of time it takes for the Russian Army to die in a pocket.
As for "manpower production" ? ... Other than possibly the Crimea and the Caucasus, everything west of the Volga will be in German hands by mid-42. Until you get Corps level combat units in the field in high numbers, the Russian Army will not be doing anything on the field other than retreating or dying in pockets. There are no hex defense arrangements or combat unit combinations that can prevent the Panzer Ball from taking any hex it decides to seize, prior to stacked Russian Corps in fortified hexes. Attempting to defend positions with anything less than Corps is just a pocket waiting to happen. (and yes, I know you can get away with Divisions in the North, but there the terrain is defending you more than the troops and the Germans have no real incentive to go any further than the defensible terrain east of Leningrad around the Onega and Beloe Lake area anyway.)
[Edit: After I posted this, Wheat has just proven that under this latest patch, the Russians can't even hold a line in the dense North terrain without Corps level units. For all the talk about balance improvements, the latest patch has apparently made things even worse for the Russians. I guess I'm just going to have to give up and start playing only the German side.]
Very few named elite player may be able to defend better with the soviet union, but for most soviet players even experimented i fear it will happen as the previous post describe.
The "panzer ballet" got a lot more difficult with the newest patch, and rightly so, I think. The German allocation of 50 AP per turn is about enough for one HQBU for one panzer corps. You aren't doing any for the first couple of turns, but you have some re-allocation of corps to different panzer armies and some really lousy corps commanders to replace. Turns 6-16, you can do about one per turn or lay up for a couple of turns and do three or four at a time, which is the preferred method, I think.
No game can reasonably claim to simulate the Soviet-German War of 1941-45 if the Russians have no choice but to sprint for the Urals in summer, 1941, surrendering Moscow and Leningrad without a fight.
