Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis)

[KorutZelva]

April 26, 1941

Yugo survive another turn and retire inland... Maybe Sugar is saving the Yugo surrender morale penalty for use in conjunction to some offensive. [;)]
UK Royal Air force does a good account of themselves in the desert. My Air HQ isn't losing exp in the defensive engagements. When our fighters meet, it drains my entire budget at the cost of half of germany's. Not too shabby. As you can see below, Sugar is being prudent with his air positioning with the UK carriers in the area. Germany is getting a bit more serious about its sub raiding after being mostly quiet during the earlier stages of the war. Axis score a Spain diplo hit (now 58%).

[KorutZelva]

May 1941

Yugo falls, Croatia is formed. German subs seen sneaking into the med. Airwar in NA still in full swing. The Italians form a screen at Gazala, stretching south. UK hit and run two garrisons out of their line (Not much but I need all the exp I can!!!). USSR at 72%.

[room]

If not on the MPPs losses , you seem do be doing at least more than fine strategically KZ. Match doez not seem won for Sugar at this point. SU is going to thougher than normal while UK might still be holding ground somewhere in NA by the time barba starts. But I wouldn't sell out Sugar by this point... Just seeing how he traded german losses for italian ones is marvellous... I feel German will have a very high impact at start of barba with all the initial thec invest and the relatively loww german losses. I wannnnnnna seeeeeeee [;)][;)]

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: room

If not on the MPPs losses , you seem do be doing at least more than fine strategically KZ. Match doez not seem won for Sugar at this point. SU is going to thougher than normal while UK might still be holding ground somewhere in NA by the time barba starts. But I wouldn't sell out Sugar by this point... Just seeing how he traded german losses for italian ones is marvellous... I feel German will have a very high impact at start of barba with all the initial thec invest and the relatively loww german losses. I wannnnnnna seeeeeeee [;)][;)]

Since my last snapshot the germans added something like 1000mp worth of tech research IIRC. They are clearly running at max speed on that front. (Interestingly, German Inf tech still at 1. Probably timed its completion at the last possible moment before Barbarossa so that the Russians don't benefit from tech catch up bonus [8D]) However, between that, extensive air unit buying, and their diplo-involvement, their land unit count seems lower than typically seen. So far we had 3 heavy air engagement in NA, but never on consecutive turns. Since the battles are not one-sided, Germany has had to refit their fighters after each attempt which has allowed me to catch my breath a little. Germany has the economy to sustain this longer than me though...

[Ktonos]

This is an unrealistic exploit: Herman ships sneaking in the Med. In reality the Allied player cannot counter this. Ships go to the loop space, and immediately transport to the other side, ready to proceed in the player's next turn. If you've seen the 'Das Boot' you will remember that crossing the Gibraltar straits was a lethal endeavour even for u boats, imagine for surface vessels. Straights should be closed for surface vessels and uboats should take hits or be flatfooted for 1 turn next to the Gibraltar.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

This is an unrealistic exploit: Herman ships sneaking in the Med. In reality the Allied player cannot counter this. Ships go to the loop space, and immediately transport to the other side, ready to proceed in the player's next turn. If you've seen the 'Das Boot' you will remember that crossing the Gibraltar straits was a lethal endeavour even for u boats, imagine for surface vessels. Straights should be closed for surface vessels and uboats should take hits or be flatfooted for 1 turn next to the Gibraltar.

Agreed, no surface ships & large hit to subs going thu Gibraltar. There should also be large penalties for the entire Italian Navy in the Atlantic.

[crispy131313]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

This is an unrealistic exploit: Herman ships sneaking in the Med. In reality the Allied player cannot counter this. Ships go to the loop space, and immediately transport to the other side, ready to proceed in the player's next turn. If you've seen the 'Das Boot' you will remember that crossing the Gibraltar straits was a lethal endeavour even for u boats, imagine for surface vessels. Straights should be closed for surface vessels and uboats should take hits or be flatfooted for 1 turn next to the Gibraltar.

Agreed, no surface ships & large hit to subs going thu Gibraltar. There should also be large penalties for the entire Italian Navy in the Atlantic.

I'm not 100% up to speed on the history of Gibraltar, but in the absence of any naval presence in the region could the local garrison prevent Axis naval units from crossing?

I myself often park UK Naval units on those transport hexes (or adjacent) to intercept the Axis if they would try to enter/exit the Med, if I did not I would not have an issue with ships breaking in or out.

I could argue that if the Gibraltar ports are occupied by Allied naval units perhaps the transport hexes should be nullified however. It would after all give some incentive to Italy/Germany to build their decision event Carriers so that they could knock out the UK Navy at Gibraltar in effort to link up the Axis navies.

[LLv34Mika]

1. it takes too much time for Axis ships to get into or out of the medeterranean sea. There are just not enough loop hexes. Just two loop hexes mean that you need 5 turns or even more to get your fleet out into the Atlantic. AND it gives the allied player a very comfortable situation. You only have to fear two ships at once from that side. Sure, there can be a wolfpack of subs waiting to protect the incoming Italians but again that seems very risky to me. All in all there is much more to lose than you can win.

2. Just protect those loop hexes. A few ships there can show you what is going on. Two UK subs sitting ON the hex fields prevent everything. If someone thinks going through the street of Gibraltar was very risky in WW2 you might also know that a big part of the Italian fleet was sunk before and the British had many ships there protecting this important passage.

Demanding to make it harder to get through is easy... not so easy is sinking most of the Reggia Marina to make it "easy" to protect Gibraltar. WW2 should not be our reference all the time. Especially not the more the game continues. Poland and France surrendered very fast but then the first strategic errors started. Comparing this game with history would mean that every player would have to repeat all errors made on both sides.

[PvtBenjamin]

Time to roll out the youtube dude Ktonos[X(][X(]

I think everyone is ok with what if's that don't mirror actual WW2 events, its events that are undeniably impossible that people have an issue with.

[KorutZelva]

Re: Gibraltar, I'm ok with Gibraltar sneaking but I wish the Allies would be allowed equal opportunity for sneaking if the Axis holds it. Either make it a thing for both, or not a thing for both. [:)]

June 9th 1941

Very active turn for Germany! They get a diplohit with USSR (only from a 5% chance but that one had been siting a while), setting its mobilisation back to 62%. The DAK realizing they can't take down the RAF in dogfights, decide its time to rush the airfield. The strike from the south overwhelming the defenders and managing to take down a tank and two fighters.

The UK counters by destroying one of the two German tanks. Small consolation, this unit likely can't be rebuilt (provided the DAK event sent Germany over the tank building limit).



I had expected Germany to try just that... but not this turn! [X(] I thought it would take 2 turns to get into position to strike south but they managed to do it in one. Mobility is an expensive upgrade but as seen here, it can be a killer! This will give Germany uncontested control of the air for a while. However, the low number of land units might give me time to regroup another defensive line in Egypt. I suspect DAK is operating with 4 HQs (1 Italian, 3 Germans) but they will also need to conquer some cities from the coast to advance their supply line further.

[KorutZelva]

July 15, 1941

UK position in NA collapse and Lybian holdings are reduced to the Tobruk-Bardia pocket, Churchill is in hot water as 150,000 british soldiers risk entrapment. A major naval battle occurs off the coast of Algeria. Two German subs scouted and engaged the British task force protecting the area, followed by an attack of the (fully repaired!) Regia Marina. Over the course of two turns the Royal Navy task force is destroyed by the combined fleet... The main carrier Royal Force however had been rushed to the scene and proceeded to cut the Regia Marina in ribbons. Only the battered Trieste Heavy Cruiser remains... (well until the Roma is completed anyway!) but is unlikely to escape.

Unit Count pre-Barbarossa...

[KorutZelva]

Aug 41

Barbarossa starts! Units near Ostrov escape unscathed (bomber, fighter, mech inf, corp), almost all other border units are destroyed. Finland joins Axis, Persia is invaded. The Tobruk pocket is reduced, no Dunkirk for these guys. First german sub sunk off the eastern coast of Spain. USSR Swedish diplohit +10%.

Notable neutrals: Netherlands, Latvia, Estonia, Spain

They really should give a trade route for keeping the Netherlands around as sort of a repeat of WW I.

[room]

Oh I missed Netherland still neutral. That is a strange gameplay wise no? What is the interest for the german to not take it?

Otherwise, it s ok if they are hard to get in the allies if not attacked. Would they seriously consider to attack the Reich after France fell... That'd be crazy.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: room

Oh I missed Netherland still neutral. That is a strange gameplay wise no? What is the interest for the german to not take it?

Otherwise, it s ok if they are hard to get in the allies if not attacked. Would they seriously consider to attack the Reich after France fell... That'd be crazy.

He pushed through the Maginot so he ended up not needing it. Actually, Belgium would have been spared too hadn't Sugar needed to conquer it to activate Italy. [:)]

The declaration of war vs Belgium did give the Netherlands a 50% allied leaning. He's saving a bit on USA mobilisation but at the cost of missing out on plunder and mpp from the capital.

I do expect a whole slew of minors to go down once the USA joins. Although, by keeping them neutral, that's one bit of the coast he doesn't have to worry about.

[KorutZelva]

1941/8/26

The USSR chose not to give battle at the frontier preferring to fight in inside their country. Buddeny's HQ gets overrun but he narrowly escapes (aka destroyed in supply), Stalin consider giving him a second chance. Canadians make a surprise raid in Palermo and see paratrooper in range of Tunisia. The Duce consider allowing german troop to defend the Apennine Peninsula from further allied landings and save his regime, however doing so would cast aside any pretence at sovereignty. Without any army, navy or air power to speak of Italy is reduced to being a german mouth piece. Vichy authorities are notified of the paratroopers but dismiss the report. The Axis Second USSR swedish diplohit +9%. USA rushes tanks to Egypt, upsetting Inönü (but not enough to resume chrome shipments to Germany).

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: LLv34Mika

1. it takes too much time for Axis ships to get into or out of the medeterranean sea. There are just not enough loop hexes. Just two loop hexes mean that you need 5 turns or even more to get your fleet out into the Atlantic. AND it gives the allied player a very comfortable situation. You only have to fear two ships at once from that side. Sure, there can be a wolfpack of subs waiting to protect the incoming Italians but again that seems very risky to me. All in all there is much more to lose than you can win.

2. Just protect those loop hexes. A few ships there can show you what is going on. Two UK subs sitting ON the hex fields prevent everything. If someone thinks going through the street of Gibraltar was very risky in WW2 you might also know that a big part of the Italian fleet was sunk before and the British had many ships there protecting this important passage.

Demanding to make it harder to get through is easy... not so easy is sinking most of the Reggia Marina to make it "easy" to protect Gibraltar. WW2 should not be our reference all the time. Especially not the more the game continues. Poland and France surrendered very fast but then the first strategic errors started. Comparing this game with history would mean that every player would have to repeat all errors made on both sides.

IIRC.

+1

C

[Ktonos]

ORIGINAL: Christolos

ORIGINAL: LLv34Mika

1. it takes too much time for Axis ships to get into or out of the medeterranean sea. There are just not enough loop hexes. Just two loop hexes mean that you need 5 turns or even more to get your fleet out into the Atlantic. AND it gives the allied player a very comfortable situation. You only have to fear two ships at once from that side. Sure, there can be a wolfpack of subs waiting to protect the incoming Italians but again that seems very risky to me. All in all there is much more to lose than you can win.

2. Just protect those loop hexes. A few ships there can show you what is going on. Two UK subs sitting ON the hex fields prevent everything. If someone thinks going through the street of Gibraltar was very risky in WW2 you might also know that a big part of the Italian fleet was sunk before and the British had many ships there protecting this important passage.

Demanding to make it harder to get through is easy... not so easy is sinking most of the Reggia Marina to make it "easy" to protect Gibraltar. WW2 should not be our reference all the time. Especially not the more the game continues. Poland and France surrendered very fast but then the first strategic errors started. Comparing this game with history would mean that every player would have to repeat all errors made on both sides.

IIRC.

+1

C

I didn't want to respond as it would misdirect the thread from an AAR. But if the answer keeps popping up it already has. So,

1. It takes too much time to bring the whole Axis fleet. But bringing 2 subs, and next turn 2 German battleships in the Med can be devastating depending on the timing.

2. UK will always be at a disadvantage protecting the loop hexes as the German player can always defeat her in detail. Lets see what happens. German moves a sub to the loophex, only to find that it was guarded by a destroyer and a heavy cruiser. Whatever happens next turn, the German will not lose the sub. In fact damage is going to be in favor of the Axis in that minor skirmish, MPP wise at least. As a UK player what do you expect in the following turns? The German knows what defends the straits and can move a fleet there with the perfect composition to destroy the defending ships. UK player can only reinforce the straits to an extent that he creates another battlegroup. And that would defeat the purpose of owning the straights. Or he can just concede and evacuate the hexes.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

I didn't want to respond as it would misdirect the thread from an AAR. But if the answer keeps popping up it already has. So,

1. It takes too much time to bring the whole Axis fleet. But bringing 2 subs, and next turn 2 German battleships in the Med can be devastating depending on the timing.

2. UK will always be at a disadvantage protecting the loop hexes as the German player can always defeat her in detail. Lets see what happens. German moves a sub to the loophex, only to find that it was guarded by a destroyer and a heavy cruiser. Whatever happens next turn, the German will not lose the sub. In fact damage is going to be in favor of the Axis in that minor skirmish, MPP wise at least. As a UK player what do you expect in the following turns? The German knows what defends the straits and can move a fleet there with the perfect composition to destroy the defending ships. UK player can only reinforce the straits to an extent that he creates another battlegroup. And that would defeat the purpose of owning the straights. Or he can just concede and evacuate the hexes.

It's fine to talk about these things in the AAR. AFAIK these are read by Bill and Hubert who always appreciate the brain storming.

[KorutZelva]

September 41

The DAK besiege Alexandria. The defender counter vs the battle weary italians. The UK put their new american tanks to good use and harass the artillery, forcing it to withdraw. The Canadians in Palermo receive a change in orders: Hold your ground. As long as they hold the city, the german paratroopers won't have enough supplies to paradrop to Tunisia. The USSR continues its orderly withdrawal, no units killed last turn. USA are getting worried at the Axis incursion into Egypt, mobilisation rise to 70%.

[KorutZelva]

I apologise for the sluggish pace of the AAR. [:)] Normally Sugar and I are known for our high output of turns per day. I had a 2 week slower stretch which concluded last Friday, but now it's Sugar's turn to be on a lower output. Probably a bit of bad timing! [:)]