8MP Team Game - The Axis team

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leverkuhn
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by leverkuhn »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Given if you can get a quad cannon to point in the right direction and press the trigger I can see it will be very damaging against soft targets. Just a big gun like that mounted on the back of a wheeled road vehicle is too cumbersome in open country battles. Not too mentioned being a big target itself. If it had been effective in the ground role I am sure they would have replaced tanks with it. But I think most tankies would prefer their panzers to a quad cannon.

The problem would be getting the halftrack to a good shooting point before it's blown to pieces by something bigger. But in a defensive stance against lots of infantry advancing in the open, behind proper cloaking and bunkering I can see those fast shooting flak guns would make a huge difference.
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Telemecus
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: leverkuhn

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Given if you can get a quad cannon to point in the right direction and press the trigger I can see it will be very damaging against soft targets. Just a big gun like that mounted on the back of a wheeled road vehicle is too cumbersome in open country battles. Not too mentioned being a big target itself. If it had been effective in the ground role I am sure they would have replaced tanks with it. But I think most tankies would prefer their panzers to a quad cannon.

The problem would be getting the halftrack to a good shooting point before it's blown to pieces by something bigger. But in a defensive stance against lots of infantry advancing in the open, behind proper cloaking and bunkering I can see those fast shooting flak guns would make a huge difference.

You realise saying that is going to mean Crackaces testing it on different fortification levels on battle message level 7 for the rest of the week now! [:D]
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Telemecus
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: leverkuhn

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Given if you can get a quad cannon to point in the right direction and press the trigger I can see it will be very damaging against soft targets. Just a big gun like that mounted on the back of a wheeled road vehicle is too cumbersome in open country battles. Not too mentioned being a big target itself. If it had been effective in the ground role I am sure they would have replaced tanks with it. But I think most tankies would prefer their panzers to a quad cannon.

The problem would be getting the halftrack to a good shooting point before it's blown to pieces by something bigger. But in a defensive stance against lots of infantry advancing in the open, behind proper cloaking and bunkering I can see those fast shooting flak guns would make a huge difference.

Also would it then be the most efficient weapon to use? Infantry in open country would be blown to bits, but would still die then to a much cheaper machine gun? Quad cannon must be about the most inefficient way to kill a man. Such an exorbitant expense surely only makes sense then for a target like an expensive aeroplane?
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by timmyab »

Turn 29 Army group North

It's 1942 and things are looking up a bit. It's still colder than the North pole out there but our troops are looking decidely stronger and more confident than they did the last time I stuck my head out of the bunker, so much so that I'm almost tempted to stop retreating......Nah maybe next week.

Another piece of good news this week is that the enemy cavalry army operating South of lake Ilmen appears to have dispersed. Intelligence reports suggest that at least a part of it has moved East into the Valdai region while another may be heading out of the Novgorod/Vyshny area altogether. Judging by the number of Soviet attacks last week it may even be the case that Soviet offensive operations in the North have now ceased.



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chaos45
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by chaos45 »

as to AA weapons being used on ground targets it seems to be alot more common than ppl think. Esp the Germans seems to use the 2cm flak gun in ground support role alot.
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RE: 8MP Axis T29

Post by thedude357 »

Turn 29 Army Group South

All out Soviet onslaught in the southern sector. The line bends but does not break. The only real interesting thing of note is that the 2nd Slovakian Security Division retreats over the axis-ally limit line. Nebelwerfers and artillery absolutely smash the attacking Soviet infantry exposed in the blizzard. When its cold out, its cold out. Any attack by the Soviets comes with high losses. So far the line is looking like it will be ok during the blizzard.

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Telemecus
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8MP Axis T29

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 29 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 29.
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Economic War

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective Look at Economic War in 1941

Superimposing which factories we think were evacuated and which were overrun onto the front lines in turn 1,5,9 and 14 shows us the Soviets losing large concentrations of industry in the south and near Moscow later in 1941. South had gone from a slow start to spectacular gains in territory so we may have caught them out. More evacuation of the big industrial areas earlier might have helped - by later in the campaign they did not have enough rail cap in time. At one point it looked like the large amount of arms industry in Tula had no units to defend it - but they managed to deploy an adequate delaying force to give them time to save it. But they continued to lose industry right up to turn 22 in the snow which they should have had no rail constraint in saving. Losing the fighter bomber factory at Taganrog, the night fighter factory at Moscow and the Li-2 transport factory in Khimki in particular may leave gaps in their capabilities. On the other hand rail cap was used to deliberately evacuate U2VS factories towards advancing German ground forces or to impair its production intentionally through an evacuation.

Our ongoing count of industry lost earlier in this AAR had forgotten to include the industry lost at Gomel, but included some arms industry at Leningrad that should not have been. The final tally for 1941 means the Soviets should remain with 261 arms factories and 160 heavy industry factories. Some rules of thumb indicate arms and heavy industry need to be evacuated at a ratio of 3:2 which would indicate they are underweight on heavy industry. Others suggest heavy industry is only a constraint later in the game. Typically given the number of resource factories the Soviets will retain they could fully utilise 200 heavy industry (and hence 300 arms factories) - as they will be below this number they will probably never have a shortage of resources being produced to feed their heavy industry. Different estimates are given for how much industry the Soviet side needs to survive and thrive, but we feel we have succeeded in destroying more industry than any of these estimates would want.

A novelty of this game has been the factories being evacuated along the Volga valley well to the east of the furthest advance in 1941. The evacuations around Gorky and Saratov are clearly in response to our strategic bombing campaign. Other factories that have been bombed but not evacuated or overrun are shown in blue. Radio Moscow (now broadcasting from Kazan) however has protested that their evacuations of Stalingrad are not attributable to the strategic bombing campaign but because we will be capturing Stalingrad in 1942! We are happy to make this correction. Although we doubt the guy in the Soviet Union who came up with that line will have a long career in Public Relations.

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(picture corrected to show correct evac turn of MiG-3s

PS will this graphic win me the coveted Matrix Forums graphic of the year award?
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Economic War

Post by SparkleyTits »

That's really nice visually and easy to understand

It helps that as a Soviet commander in EightMP I now have a better context of what happened in 41 [:D]
Zorch
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Economic War

Post by Zorch »

'Excellent' (as Mr. Burns would say) post. The Soviets will have trouble winning even if they survive the summer of '42.
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Telemecus
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Strategic Bombing of General Industry

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of General Industry

Heavy industry was one of our lowest priorities for the strategic bombing campaign - we expect it destroyed just over 135k in supplies of which about 45k will actually be in 1942*. We did this by bombing the following heavy industry factories (with number of turns in which they added damage in brackets): Voroshilovgrad (2), Novorossiysk (8), Lipetsk (6), Ivanovo (13), Voronezh (2), Penza (6), Dzerhinsk (1), Rybinsk (13), Kerch (5), Taganrog (3). However many of these raids were top up raids or much smaller in scale compared to our priority targets. Many raids occurred shortly before factories were overrun or evacuated (at Taganrog, Kerch and Voroshilovgrad). Inter-command co-ordination is a key challenge in a team game, but in a single player game many of these could have been avoided.

Our lowest priority were the arms factories we bombed (with number of turns in which they added damage in brackets): Novorossiysk (3), South Stalingrad (3), Kerch (1). We expect between 5k and 6k of arms points were lost as a result*.

Some raids on resource factories were made but this was not pursued.

The graph below shows the impact of the 1941 campaign on Soviet heavy industry. The bulk of lost production of supplies came from the overrunning or damage of factories by Axis ground forces or their evacuation by the Soviet Union. The graph only depicts the effects of the 1941 campaign which could be augmented by action after 1941. Nevertheless the effects of the 1941 campaign we expect to last well afterwards. Only by the middle of 1942 will all damage be repaired. The remaining 160 strong heavy industry should each produce 650 supplies weekly in 1942, 775 in 1943, 850 in 1944 and 900 in 1945 - unless I have missed an update to the manual! This means the Soviet Union would produce just over 100k in weekly supplies from mid 1942 and eventually reach a weekly production of under 150k in 1945.

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It is unlikely that the reduction in supplies will have a great effect on the Soviet war effort in 1941. The much reduced size of their armed forces and the damage to their industry will mean they are likely to need less in supply than they have. Any impact therefore will only be accumulated later when their industry and armed forces approach the limits of what they can supply. However the loss of arms points in 1941 could well have exacerbated a choke point.

Within the supply chain of resource factories feeding heavy indutry feeding arms factories only the choke point need be targetted. Bombing the others can be redundant. In other AARs Soviet sides have evacuated sufficient heavy industry that resource factories are their choke point. As resource factories cannot be evacuated and only repair 1% a turn this can be highly effective. But in this game the number of heavy industry factories evacuated should mean this will not be a profitable strategy here. We have assumed long term heavy industry is more of a choke point based on the 3:2 ratio assumed for arms to heavy industry. In addition heavy industry only repairs at 2% a turn compared to arms industry at 3% a turn making bombing here more effective. But we will have to see still if this was correct.

On the other hand the men and material committed to bombing general industry has not been significant. It consisted almost exclusively of Level Bombers and some other types of Rumanian bombers, and only at the end of the turn after other combat missions were complete. Few aircraft were lost and the only remaining impact would be higher fatigue levels in the next turn. These have rarely been high. Thus a small but significant impact on Soviet production has been gained at an insignificant cost.

*The losses evacuated factories would have had if they had not been bombed are not included in these figures except for Penza and Ivanovo where their evacuations were caused by strategic bombing.

The spreadsheet with the data and calculations for these figures is attached. Corrections and suggestions for improvement are welcome.
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Strategic Bombing of Aeroplane Factories

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of Aeroplane Factories

Soviet production of fighters and fighter bombers has been described previously in this AAR. The following charts show the effects of the strategic bombing campaign disaggregrated from the ground war on our priority targets.

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Although we are only considering the effects of the 1941 ground war and strategic bombing campaign, much of the lost production will actually take place in 1942.

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For comparison we have the losses if the game had been under the v1.11.02 rule
Gary Grigsby's War in the East has been updated to Public Beta version 1.11.02!
7. Damaged factories will expand with 100% chance at 0% damage, and 0% chance at 50%+ damage, instead of no expansion with 1%+ damage.

This rule was designed to curb the effectiveness of strategic bombing on vulnerable expanding factories, and may even have been caused by this AAR. But its greatest impact will be on the ground war as it was even without bombing. For example even if a Soviet player still has to evacuate the Il-2 factories from Voronezh and there is no bombing, they are likely to have 1,000 more Il-2s under this rule. Strategic bombing will still be effective if there is a snowball effect on damage levels. So the most vulnerable factories will not only have a large expansion to come, but start on a low absolute production run which will get large damage levels quickly - the T-60 factory at South Stalingrad being a prime example. As such if the game so far had actually been played under v1.11.02 targeting would have been adapted to the new rules so these calculations would be an underestimate.

The spreadsheet with data and calculations for this post are attached. Corrections and suggestions welcome!
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Zorch
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Strategic Bombing of Aeroplane Factories

Post by Zorch »

Very impressive. Is there any way to compare your game to historical production?
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on Strategic Bombing of Aeroplane Factories

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Very impressive. Is there any way to compare your game to historical production?

That is so tempting! It is a much bigger job than doing spreadsheets from WitE data though so may be beyond what I am capable of alone. However I assume it has been done already if only for research for this game?

I would be very interested in how the designers chose these factories. Not only were they trying to match historical production in games that followed sequences similar to historical lines, but they also how to chose what extra industry was lost for them, and would be lost for other results. Is there any research on what the Soviet Union would have produced if it had not been overrun?
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of T-34

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of T-34 Factories

Shown below is the expected production of T-34 tanks compared to what it would have been. Of the four factories producing T-34 M1941 tanks three were subjected to aerial bombardment. The Kharkhov factory was evacuated ahead of our advancing ground forces, and our opponents say the Stalingrad factory was evacuated in 1941 because we are going to conquer Stalingrad in 1942. The evacuation of the Gorky factory was unequivocally due to our strategic bombing campaign.

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Most of the losses from the action in 1941 actually do not occur in 1941 but in 1942. Thus any snap shot of the T-34 pool and OOB would completely miss the impact of the results of the 1941 bombing. The fact that our opponents evacuated all of the Kharkhov and Stalingrad factories indicates they do not envisage a surplus of these tanks to requirements.

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In the case of T-34s the number lost in production to strategic bombing (from 1941 only) exceeded the number lost to the ground war.

Strategic bombing will also still be effective in v1.11.02

(Many thanks for the explanation that T-34 M1942 tank production initial capacity does follow from T-34 M1941 tank production final capacity - so will also be affected by the ground war and strategic bombing in 1941)

Attached to a following post on generic vehicles is a spreadsheet with the data and calculations for this post
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of T-60

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of T-60 Factories

Shown below is the expected production of T-60 tanks compared to what it would have been. There are three factories producing the T-60 tank. The largest loss came from the evacuation of the T-60 factory in Leningrad prior to its upgrade. This was evacuated just ahead of ground troops approaching Leningrad. However only one point of this factory was evacuated meaning not only did it have to wait many turns to repair its damage but it also had to wait more turns to expand to its original capacity. Bar some collateral damage on the T-60 factory in Gorky while bombing the T34 factory all of our strategic bombing effort of T60 factories occurred solely on the T-60 factory in South Stalingrad. By choking the expansion of this factory to only two a week rather than the fifty a week it gets to would have had a huge effect. But five turns after the bombing began they evacuated this factory - and our opponents insist they would have done this anyway as they expect us to conquer Stalingrad in 1942! Thus many of the losses that would have been attributed to the strategic bombing campaign have instead been allocated to the 1942 ground campaign. So while we have lost production in 1942 due to our 1941 campaign, we now also have production in 1941 lost to our 1942 campaign!

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Our actions in 1941 will lead to far greater losses of T-60s after 1941 than in 1941.

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Strategic bombing will also still be effective in v1.11.02

The South Stalingrad T-60 factory is in every way the perfect strategic bombing target. It is a key Soviet chokepoint. It expands its capacity by 49 to reach a full capacity of 50. And it starts on a capacity of just 1, meaning bombing raids cause far more damage to this than they would to a larger factory. However the real conclusion should be that every Soviet player should evacuate this factory not in the Autumn of 1941 but as soon as they can (turn 3?). This would mean it is evacuated when it is at its least in rail cost, it will be out of range of ever being bombed, and will spend the time when it is not in production anyway being repaired.

Also given the importance of light tanks in the Soviet OOB in the early war it might be worth revisiting whether the evacuation of just 1 point of the T-60 factory (as it will upgrade to) in Leningrad is enough. Evacuating more would do far more for light tank production early in the war than anything else.

Attached to a following post on generic vehicles is a spreadsheet with the data and calculations for this post
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of Generic Vehicles

Post by Telemecus »

Turn 001 22-June-1941 to Turn 028 31-December-1941: A Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing of Generic Vehicle Factories

After tanks and planes our 3rd priority for the 1941 Strategic Bombing Campaign was vehicles. Four vehicle factories were bombed- Murom, Yaroslavl, Saratov and Kuybyshev. Kuybyshev and Saratov however came late to the strategic bombing campaign of vehicle factories and Yaroslavl proved to be very difficult to build up any substantial damage levels at all.

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As generic vehicle factories do not expand the v1.11.02 rule change of expansion of damaged factories does not apply here.

We also bombed the Tambov self propelled flak factory. This could mean flak will need more vehicles to be towed and fewer vehicles will be decomposed from Soviet SP flak.

Attached is a spreadsheet with the data and calculations for this post and previous ones on strategic bombing of vehicles factories
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8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing

Post by Telemecus »

The Big Message from all of this is

STRATEGIC BOMBING WORKS

and it will still work in v1.11.02

(and I will bore you to tears with spreadsheets if you do not agree)
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing

Post by M60A3TTS »

no it doesn't
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RE: 8MP Axis 1941 Retrospective on 1941 Strategic Bombing

Post by Blubel2 »

:D
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