What do ACP do in the game?

[fatgreta1066]

Is there any game related function for an ACP? I can't figure out what they're for here.

[Rory Noonan]

ACP is?

[fatgreta1066]

Airborne Command Post, I suddenly can't find any of them but they are present in some scenarios.

[fatgreta1066]

An example is the EC-130 Commando Solo I in the DB (United States Air Force)

[fatgreta1066]

It's an actual loadout type in the game as well.

[Rory Noonan]

They don't have any explicit use in the retail version, and I would imagine they're included in scenarios as high value targets or objectives.

[kevinkins]

This is ongoing wargaming issue not just related to Command. When a product becomes both "professional" and "retail" some pro aspects can leak into the retail game. This does not happen all too often, but often enough that apache85 IDed it quickly. A bit frustrating to be on the outside looking in ... but not enough to get too worked up about. I think every air/naval platform in retail Command should have some tangible function other than being a target.

Kevin

[Rory Noonan]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

This is ongoing wargaming issue not just related to Command. When a product becomes both "professional" and "retail" some pro aspects can leak into the retail game. This does not happen all too often, but often enough that apache85 IDed it quickly. A bit frustrating to be on the outside looking in ... but not enough to get too worked up about. I think every air/naval platform in retail Command should have some tangible function other than being a target.

Kevin

Hold on. This is not a case of anything leaking anywhere. For example the database entries for the E-4 Airborne Command Post are #695 and #696; database IDs are assigned sequentially and we're now up in the 4,700+ range, which means they've been in there for a very long time.

Perhaps I didn't word my post well. Lots of units have no intrinsic use apart from being targets or objectives, but you can do a lot with them as a scenario designer--which is why they're included.

[kevinkins]

I am not talking about ground facilities like generic buildings. But a a/c or naval maneuver unit should has some tactical function other than being a target like a static building or why would the player put them at any risk? They should not be used to run interference/recon when they have a lot a real world value not reflected in Command's current model. Sure, the designer could assign a huge number of points to the likes of the E-4 Airborne Command Post. But what real difference will it make if they can not affect the battle and the player just keeps them in the hanger? Having these types of units in the DB historically does not make the point that they should not have a tactical function. This reminds me of using low value trucks as recon units in ground wargames. BTW, I used the term "leak" poorly. I was not meaning anyone is leaking NDA secrets.

Kevin

[Gunner98]

I've used ACPs in a couple scenarios and added points (if I recall correctly) for having them stationed in an area I think they might be needed to control the fight. Also higher point loss if they get killed as an HVU.

I think it adds depth to the story of the scenario.

B

[kevinkins]

But you would have to agree that the situation mentioned above is less than ideal and if the ACPs had some real tactical/controlling functionality the situation would be a bit more realistic. Orbiting in an area just to gain points is not ideal. It's sort of contrived in order to put some DB units to use. But I do understand all that is good re: the flexibility of the retail game as it stands. My point is that all military units should have some tangible military functionality associated with them other than being cannon fodder or having to be protected in a area that may or may not have tactical relevance to the actual game play and strategies selected by the player. The number of units falling into this category is small. I am talking philosophically. It's not a big deal.

Kevin

[Rory Noonan]

Sure, C3 modelling definitely adds depth to scenarios. It's achievable and not particularly difficult; see the scenario I released recently for an example. Including things like E-4s, Comms Bunkers, Power Stations etc allows this kind of flexibility in scenario design.

[RoryAndersonCDT]

Perhaps one way to model ACP is an Lua script that does something akin to "within a radius of 500 nm of this aircraft increase the proficiency of all allied A/C to Ace"

[Sharana]

... when they have a lot a real world value not reflected in Command's current model. Sure, the designer could assign a huge number of points to the likes of the E-4 Airborne Command Post. But what real difference will it make if they can not affect the battle and the player just keeps them in the hanger?

Excuse me, but do you know what E-4 is?
E-4 is "doomsday plane", it has literally one vital function and will be used the way it's supposed to be used only in case all hell broke loose. It provides command and control of U.S. nuclear forces in the event that ground-based command centers have been destroyed or otherwise rendered inoperable. In such an event, the general officer aboard serves as the Airborne Emergency Action Officer and by law assumes the authority of the National Command Authority and could command execution of nuclear attacks. That's about it and it's not hard to script a scenario involving nuclear missiles and enemy pre emptive strike destroying the ground command centers, so that you will need E-4 to launch nukes as retaliation.

E-6 Mercury serving with the Navy has similar function, but it's job was communicating with the subs in case ground infrastructure used for that has been destroyed.

Another ACP is EC-135C that was retired after the Cold war.

The airborne command post is referred to as Looking Glass because its mission "mirrors" ground-based command, control, and communications located at the USSTRATCOM Global Operations Center (GOC) at Offutt Air Force Base. The EC-135 Looking Glass aircraft were equipped with the Airborne Launch Control System, capable of transmitting launch commands to U.S. ground-based intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) in the event that the ground launch control centers were rendered inoperable.

The Looking Glass was also designed to help ensure continuity and reconstitution of the US government in the event of a nuclear attack on North America. Although the two types of aircraft are distinct, the Doomsday Plane nickname is also frequently associated with the E-4 "Nightwatch" Advanced Airborne Command Post mission and aircraft.

What else do you think such plane like E-4 should do? That's not AWACS type plane with officers in it commanding the tactical situation, so they don't "affect the battle" any any tactical way. You can't model that AWACS command link either, because it's a game and the player is almighty being that controls time and can see everything plus can micro manage each unit disregarding any real life infrastructure needed for C3. It's really hard to model realistic C3.

After the Cold war ended those planes lost their function kind of as nuclear war isn't as likely as it was back then. EC-135s were retired, E-4s try to find other uses for themself:

With the adoption of two highly modified Boeing 747-200Bs (Air Force designation VC-25A) to serve as Air Force One in 1989 and the end of the Cold War, the need for NEACP diminished. In 1994, NEACP began to be known as NAOC, and it took on a new responsibility: ferrying Federal Emergency Management Agency crews to natural disaster sites and serving as a temporary command post on the ground until facilities could be built on site. Evidently no E-4B was employed during the Hurricane Katrina disaster of 2005, though one E-4B was used by FEMA following Hurricane Opal in 1995.

The other mentioned plane was EC-130 Commando Solo. Let's check it's service history:

3rd SOW received EC-130s, the Air National Guard unit participated in the rescue of American citizens in Operation Urgent Fury in 1983. Then known as Volant Solo, the aircraft acted as an airborne radio station, keeping the citizens of Grenada informed about U.S. military action. Several years later in 1989, Volant Solo was instrumental in the success of coordinated psychological operations in Operation Just Cause. During this mission, it broadcasted throughout the initial phases of the operation, helping to end the Noriega regime.

In 1990, the 193rd joined the newly formed Air Force Special Operations Command, and the wing's aircraft were redesignated Commando Solo, with no change in mission. In 1990-91, Commando Solo was deployed to Saudi Arabia and Turkey in support of operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Its missions included broadcasting the "Voice of the Gulf" and other highly successful programs intended to convince Iraqi soldiers to surrender.

In 1994, Commando Solo was used to broadcast radio and TV messages to the citizens and leaders of Haiti during Operation Uphold Democracy. President Jean-Bertrand Aristide was featured in these broadcasts, which contributed to the orderly transition from military rule to democracy.

Continuing its tradition, in 1997 the Commando Solo supported the U.N. Operation Joint Guard with radio and TV broadcasts over Bosnia-Herzegovina in support of stabilization forces operations. In 1998, the unit and its aircraft participated in Operation Desert Thunder, a deployment to Southwest Asia to convince Iraq to comply with U.N. Security Council resolutions. The Commando Solo was again sent into action in 1999 in support of Operation Allied Force. The aircraft was tasked to broadcast radio and television into Kosovo to prevent ethnic cleansing and assist in the expulsion of the Serbs from the region. In 2001, these aircraft broadcasted messages to the local Afghan population and Taliban soldiers during Operation Enduring Freedom.
...
http://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/ ... ando-solo/

Do we care about psychological warfare in CMANO? Not to mention that it can't really be modeled.

[kevinkins]

[/quote]

Perhaps one way to model ACP is an Lua script that does something akin to "within a radius of 500 nm of this aircraft increase the proficiency of all allied A/C to Ace"

I was thinking the exact same thing, along a few other ways, to use a ACP as a "force multiplier". Maybe we can collectively post some code over in the Lua Legion area as a jump start.

[SeaQueen]

It's a high value unit that you can use for a target or defend in a scenario. Part of your victory conditions for a scenario might be to destroy it, or keep it alive at the end of it.

One of the things I really like about Command is how much attention is given to these kinds of things even if they don't have an explicit C2 function in the game (the game is too tactical for that anyhow), although it might be interesting to experiment with using them in a way similar to how one might model a centralized IADS. That might allow them to function as "pass through" nodes for information and thus give them more of a C2 role.

[SeaQueen]

Do we care about psychological warfare in CMANO? Not to mention that it can't really be modeled.

Not generally, the game is tactical/operational not operational/strategic, and a lot of the biggest effects of psyops are not really well represented in the game (e.g. propaganda, misinformation, strategic messaging, etc. don't really play a big role in the scenario, they're more conditions which might shape the construction of a scenario). At best you might be able to do things like use LUA to change units proficiency, but that involves making assumptions about the effects of psyops which are not necessarily so simple.

That being said, a psyops aircraft is a high value target, so you might build a scenario around attacking or defending one. The victory conditions might include moving the aircraft unscathed into an area you intend to broadcast in. A scenario might be something like, "The 4th Al Faw Motorized Infantry Division is currently operating in area XXX, intelligence has high confidence that they have gone unpaid and unfed for the past six months, and their water supply is critically low. Their equipment is poorly maintained, and their officers are poor quality. The ground component commander believes that as much as 25% of their troops are on the verge of abandoning their equipment and deserting. Fly your PSYOPS aircraft to area XXX and broadcast for 12 hours in order to encourage them to abandon their garrison and not engage in combat operations against the advancing X Armored Corps." While you're in the area the PSYOPs aircraft would have to be defended from SAMs, AAA and opposing fighters.

[fatgreta1066]

ORIGINAL: Sharana

The other mentioned plane was EC-130 Commando Solo. Let's check it's service history:

the aircraft acted as an airborne radio station,

So we just need a modder to make that plane crank out tunes like Ride of the Valkyrie while the game goes on, and then we'll be modeling its functionality?