The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Alfred




Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

Thank you both for the clarifications. Alfred: would a 101 national code within 20 hexes of Tokyo trigger kamikazes or 'emergency' LCUs? I assume that a 100 code within 20 hexes would trigger both the kamikazes as well as the LCU 'emergency' reinforcements?

For what it's worth, Ketoi Jima is 25 hexes; Paramushiro 30.

These are two separate things. The kamikaze trigger is a distance trigger whereas the emergency reinforcements trigger is a nationality code hex trigger.

1. Kamikaze.

• triggered when an Allied base is 20 hexes or less from Tokyo, Saigon or Takao
• triggered when the Allied base must meet certain criteria primarily in terms of size and not be on a Chinese national code hex) to qualify
• not triggered by Allied LCUs located on a non base hex within range

Therefore to your specific question, the only potential triggers to the north of Hokkaido are:

• Toyohara
• Etorofu
• Uruppu

2. Emergency Reinforcements

• triggered by the presence of an Allied LCU (there is a size threshold) on any nationality code hex 100
• not triggered by an Allied LCU on a code hex 101

Therefore to your specific question, yes an Allied landing on say Sapporo will trigger both kamikazes and emergency units as Sapporo is both within range of Tokyo and it is a code hex 100.

A landing on Paramushiro triggers the emergency reinforcements only because it is the only hex in the Kuriles which is code 100 but it does not trigger kamikazes because it is too far from Tokyo. Toyohara is the opposite because it is hex code 101 (hence no emergency reinforcements) but is within range of Tokyo (hence triggers kamikazes).

Alfred

Thanks Alfred. I was unclear on the specifics. This answered my question nicely.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Alfred




Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

Thank you both for the clarifications. Alfred: would a 101 national code within 20 hexes of Tokyo trigger kamikazes or 'emergency' LCUs? I assume that a 100 code within 20 hexes would trigger both the kamikazes as well as the LCU 'emergency' reinforcements?

For what it's worth, Ketoi Jima is 25 hexes; Paramushiro 30.

These are two separate things. The kamikaze trigger is a distance trigger whereas the emergency reinforcements trigger is a nationality code hex trigger.

1. Kamikaze.

• triggered when an Allied base is 20 hexes or less from Tokyo, Saigon or Takao
• triggered when the Allied base must meet certain criteria primarily in terms of size and not be on a Chinese national code hex) to qualify
• not triggered by Allied LCUs located on a non base hex within range

Therefore to your specific question, the only potential triggers to the north of Hokkaido are:

• Toyohara
• Etorofu
• Uruppu

2. Emergency Reinforcements

• triggered by the presence of an Allied LCU (there is a size threshold) on any nationality code hex 100
• not triggered by an Allied LCU on a code hex 101

Therefore to your specific question, yes an Allied landing on say Sapporo will trigger both kamikazes and emergency units as Sapporo is both within range of Tokyo and it is a code hex 100.

A landing on Paramushiro triggers the emergency reinforcements only because it is the only hex in the Kuriles which is code 100 but it does not trigger kamikazes because it is too far from Tokyo. Toyohara is the opposite because it is hex code 101 (hence no emergency reinforcements) but is within range of Tokyo (hence triggers kamikazes).

Alfred

Unfortunately, I don't have kamis yet even though the Allies possess Toyohara. It's just outside of the range as is Uruppa, I think due to the exit by sea from Tokyo involving a step around to the SW through Yokohama.

Here is the map I made a while back. I think only Etorofu inward and Wakkanai South allow for kamis to be activated.

According to my count, Maizuru, Kanazawa, and Toyama would also not activate kamis!! [X(]
(Please correct me if I'm off on the count. At the time I made this I counted 21 hexes, not 20. Not sure if that is correct)

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 15, 1944[/font]

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The Allies continue to land tanks/vehicles and supply, and the DP guns plus some 75mm army guns fire regularly, putting at least 5-6 LSTs into the possibly sinking category, and wounding a few others. MTBs found the Iowas, but couldn't land a hit.

The Allied bombardments show that this is a strong force, much superior in quality as we know to the defenders, but how much will disruption and forts play a part? Will the Allies risk naval bombardments?

If the first attack is not close to even or positive for the Allies, then it's possible disruption, fatigue and disablements will be tough to remedy if they are 20-30k overstacked in a 60k stacking hex. The Japanese bombardment shows 77k troops, but also 884 guns and 1529 vehicles, which could bring stacking up higher than 80k. Maybe even up to 90k.
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 15, 1944
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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

316 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-121
PC Kimball
LST-120
AM Revenge
LST-124
LST-123

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 23 (7 destroyed, 16 disabled)

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-121 at 8,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

43 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-277, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-274, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
PC Travis

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-277 at 4,000 yards

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Shasukotan at 134,49, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
MTB G-542
MGB G-876
MTB G-879
MTB G-884
MTB G-886, Shell hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Iowa
BB New Jersey
CA Indianapolis
CLAA Oakland
CL Biloxi
DD Franks
DD Heermann
DD John Henley
DD Johnston
DD Kidd
DD Killen
DD Knapp
DD Laws

Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 3% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Paramushiro-jima , at 137,47

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
Airfield Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

49 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-20, Shell hits 19
PC Reliance
LST-22, Shell hits 3
LST-28
LST-21, Shell hits 4
LST-85
LST-83
LST-82
LST-32
LST-29
LST-23

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-20 at 4,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Battery engaging LST-22 at 4,000 yards

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

96 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-121, Shell hits 11
LST-120, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
PC Kimball
AM Revenge
LST-123, Shell hits 1
LST-124, Shell hits 4, on fire
LST-122
LST-125

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-121 at 6,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Battery engaging LST-120 at 6,000 yards
75mm T94 Mtn Gun battery firing at LST-121

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

93 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-277, heavy damage
LST-274, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
LST-391, Shell hits 1
PC Travis
AM Zeal
LST-356

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-277 at 9,000 yards

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

90 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-20, Shell hits 24, on fire, heavy damage
PC Reliance
LST-82
LST-26
LST-22
PF Bisbee
LST-21, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-25

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-20 at 4,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

58 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-120, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-124, Shell hits 1, on fire
LST-121, Shell hits 6, heavy damage
PC Kimball
LST-122

12cm 10YT DP Gun Battery engaging LST-120 at 5,000 yards

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

47 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
PC Travis
LST-277, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LST-274, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
LST-392
LST-356
AM Zeal
LST-355

PC Travis fired at enemy troops

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Marcus Island at 127,89

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 1,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
E15K1 Norm x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
LST-637, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
27 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x E15K1 Norm bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

35 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-355, Shell hits 2
LST-277, Shell hits 4, heavy damage
PC Travis
LST-356
LST-392
LST-391

8cm T88 DP Gun Battery engaging LST-355 at 10,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Ketoi-jima (134,50)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 35410 troops, 348 guns, 15 vehicles, Assault Value = 1189

Defending force 77761 troops, 884 guns, 1529 vehicles, Assault Value = 2249

Japanese ground losses:
129 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
85th Naval Guard Unit
45th Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
36th Ind.Mixed Brigade
71st Division
109th Div /1
25th Special Base Force
5th RF Gun Battalion
49th Mountain Gun Regiment
34th Const Co
1st Base Force
3rd FF Const Unit
11th RF Gun Bn /1

Defending units:
706th Tank Battalion
4th Marine Division
1st Army Tank Regiment
3rd Marine Division
8th Australian Division
5th Australian Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
1st Regiment
2nd Medium Regiment
4th Field Artillery Battalion
148th Field Artillery Battalion
237th USN Base Force
Provisional GMC Grp

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Ground combat at Ketoi-jima (134,50)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 16873 troops, 213 guns, 384 vehicles, Assault Value = 2244

Defending force 44636 troops, 447 guns, 15 vehicles, Assault Value = 1177

Japanese ground losses:
231 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th Australian Division
706th Tank Battalion
1st Army Tank Regiment
8th Australian Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Division
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
4th Marine Division
1st Regiment
2nd Medium Regiment
148th Field Artillery Battalion
4th Field Artillery Battalion
237th USN Base Force
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
36th Ind.Mixed Brigade
71st Division
85th Naval Guard Unit
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
45th Ind.Mixed Brigade
109th Div /1
3rd FF Const Unit
25th Special Base Force
5th RF Gun Battalion
1st Base Force
34th Const Co
49th Mountain Gun Regiment
11th RF Gun Bn /1

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So there is something interesting happening here South of the Kuriles. It looks like a large group of Allied transports, CVEs and even some ships showing CA and APA are leaving the area. Their direction shows Southeast.

I'm going to monitor this and see if any opportunities open up here. This looks from current limited search flying like a LOT of ships. Maybe 100-200?

[Alfred]

obvert,
 
Your screenshot may be more accurate than my post.  I only did a quick and dirty mouseover count, not a seahex by seahex count which is the most accurate count.  The trigger rules I posted are correct.
 
Just as an anecdote (I omit non relevant "bloopers" to the issue under discussion here) to show that even the devs have occasionally posted incorrect or contradictory answers.
 
Back on 20 December 2011, USB791 who is technically not an AE dev but he is a DaBabes dev and has direct access both to the AE code and Symon with whom he collaborates with on DaBabes development, posted that advice from both Andy Mac and JWE was that an Allied presence on code hex 100 triggered the full Japanese emergency reinforcements package but a presence on code hex 101 triggered a limited package.  This comment contradicts what michaelm had said on other occasions, most definitively on 13 November 2010 when michaelm explained in detail both the triggers and the rationale.
 
Now which of the devs is correct.[:)]  To complicate this is the fact that Andrew Brown was the dev who determined the applicable country hex code which therefore suggested to michaelm that Paramushiro being code 100 might be a mistake but in the absence of a direct explanation from Andrew Brown it is left unclear whether Paramushiro is intentionally code 100 or not.  And if intentional why for the clear rationale in the design documents was for the Kuriles, Ryukyus and Izu island groups to not trigger emergency reinforcements at all.
 
The next complication is that the actual emergency reinforcements package was designed by Andy Mac so one would expect him to be the authoritative dev on what is contained within the package once triggered.  However in a strict legal sense, the 20 December 2011 post is only hearsay.  I have never found direct comments from either Andy Mac or JWE to corroborate the USB88791 post.  As such that post suffers from all the usual problems with hearsay "evidence"; problems along the lines of "chinese whispers".  Then there is the question of whether Andy Mac and JWE each said exactly the same thing, whether they just spoke from memory where further mind traps exist.  For it was quite common both during development and after AE was released for several options to be discussed, different code builds made and tried.  Andy Mac is on the public record stating that he was in favour of allowing a PP injection as part of or perhaps in lieu of the goodies found in the emergency packages whereas Nikademus is equally on the public record as being opposed to their very existence.  In this context of very vigorous debate it is very easy for a dev relying solely on memory to lose track of what was the final approach taken and what is the exact current build out in public.  Don't forget that when released all the AE devs, including michaelm, had forgotten to change the kamikaze trigger range from 15 to 20 hexes.
 
In the end I prefer to rely on michaelm's "evidence" for we can be certain that he actually did look at the kamikaze code when he fixed the range oversight and it appears from his comments that he had also recently looked at the emergency reinforcements code.  Considering that JWE made several posts in Bullwinkle's emergency reinforcements pthreads and in not one of them does he offer any evidence to the contrary, I for one am satisfied on the balance of probability that michaelm's comments are the most accurate.
 
Alfred  

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

obvert,

Your screenshot may be more accurate than my post.  I only did a quick and dirty mouseover count, not a seahex by seahex count which is the most accurate count.  The trigger rules I posted are correct.

Just as an anecdote (I omit non relevant "bloopers" to the issue under discussion here) to show that even the devs have occasionally posted incorrect or contradictory answers.

Back on 20 December 2011, USB791 who is technically not an AE dev but he is a DaBabes dev and has direct access both to the AE code and Symon with whom he collaborates with on DaBabes development, posted that advice from both Andy Mac and JWE was that an Allied presence on code hex 100 triggered the full Japanese emergency reinforcements package but a presence on code hex 101 triggered a limited package.  This comment contradicts what michaelm had said on other occasions, most definitively on 13 November 2010 when michaelm explained in detail both the triggers and the rationale.

Now which of the devs is correct.[:)]  To complicate this is the fact that Andrew Brown was the dev who determined the applicable country hex code which therefore suggested to michaelm that Paramushiro being code 100 might be a mistake but in the absence of a direct explanation from Andrew Brown it is left unclear whether Paramushiro is intentionally code 100 or not.  And if intentional why for the clear rationale in the design documents was for the Kuriles, Ryukyus and Izu island groups to not trigger emergency reinforcements at all.

The next complication is that the actual emergency reinforcements package was designed by Andy Mac so one would expect him to be the authoritative dev on what is contained within the package once triggered.  However in a strict legal sense, the 20 December 2011 post is only hearsay.  I have never found direct comments from either Andy Mac or JWE to corroborate the USB88791 post.  As such that post suffers from all the usual problems with hearsay "evidence"; problems along the lines of "chinese whispers".  Then there is the question of whether Andy Mac and JWE each said exactly the same thing, whether they just spoke from memory where further mind traps exist.  For it was quite common both during development and after AE was released for several options to be discussed, different code builds made and tried.  Andy Mac is on the public record stating that he was in favour of allowing a PP injection as part of or perhaps in lieu of the goodies found in the emergency packages whereas Nikademus is equally on the public record as being opposed to their very existence.  In this context of very vigorous debate it is very easy for a dev relying solely on memory to lose track of what was the final approach taken and what is the exact current build out in public.  Don't forget that when released all the AE devs, including michaelm, had forgotten to change the kamikaze trigger range from 15 to 20 hexes.

In the end I prefer to rely on michaelm's "evidence" for we can be certain that he actually did look at the kamikaze code when he fixed the range oversight and it appears from his comments that he had also recently looked at the emergency reinforcements code.  Considering that JWE made several posts in Bullwinkle's emergency reinforcements pthreads and in not one of them does he offer any evidence to the contrary, I for one am satisfied on the balance of probability that michaelm's comments are the most accurate.

Alfred  

I can rework that o show a 20 hex count, but it's also suspect as sea paths are not always exacting if following coastal hexes and possibly boundaries.

Certain topics seem to have been harder to work out because it took a while for games to get into an endgame position as well, I'm sure.

I'm still interested if there is some "hidden" piece of the code that would allow kamis if Northern Honshu bases like Maizuru are invaded which are more than the 20 hexes by sea from Tokyo, but obviously very close by land and very much a part of the" Home Territory" meant to be covered by this rule. Certainly much more close to home than 20 hexes from Saigon or Takao.

[obvert]

The Allies continue to lose whole bunch of bombers to flak. [:)]

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 16, 1944[/font]

---

More unloading and coastal defence action at Ketoi. New TFs too. So he's cycling them. There is also a cruiser bombardment. Mosty support troops hit, and we did manage to get a good 80-90 AV of the 109th division transported in. I did lose some transports, so he's noticed now for sure, as the DS hangs near to Ketoi. I can use this now though, since my KB is not detected, and it's snuck in range of the retreating Allied transports and other ships. This could be interesting. I'll show more later.

Down South the Allied try a DA at Toungoo. This is perfect, as the defence does a great job. It is now the perfect moment to retreat here, which will lose virtuality nothing if I can get out within a few turns without further attacks. He'll be much reduced and fatigued for a bit anyway. So the consolidation of forces will allow even more AA in one hex and much more defensive capability. I'll be able to pull back a few more units to guard against potential moves throughout the jungle or landings behind.

Maps to come soon.
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 16, 1944
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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

59 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-125, Shell hits 6, on fire
LST-78, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
LST-74, Shell hits 1
LST-167, Shell hits 6, on fire
LST-169, Shell hits 1
AM Revenge
LST-126
LST-166

12cm 10YT DP Gun Battery engaging LST-125 at 5,000 yards

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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

56 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-78, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC Travis
PC Kimball
LST-166, Shell hits 7
LST-74, Shell hits 14, on fire
LST-398
LST-392
LST-169
LST-125

12cm 10YT DP Gun Battery engaging LST-78 at 4,000 yards

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Uruppu-jima at 130,52

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 16
F6F-3 Hellcat x 63

Allied aircraft losses
Avenger II: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
LST T-119, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
LST T-117, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
LST T-118, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Avenger II bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
8 x Avenger II launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo

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Afternoon Air attack on Ketoi-jima , at 134,50

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 48 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 8
Seafire L.III x 7
B-24J Liberator x 20
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 47
F6F-3 Hellcat x 9
F6F-5 Hellcat x 8
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 29

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 10 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 19 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
100 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Uruppu-jima at 130,52

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 16
F6F-3 Hellcat x 63

Allied aircraft losses
Avenger II: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
LST T-131, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
LST T-118, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
E No.132, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
E No.26, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Avenger II bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
8 x Avenger II launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring LST T-131

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Naval bombardment of Ketoi-jima at 134,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 damaged

17 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
CA Louisville
CL Houston II
DD Hobby
DD Gillespie
DD Gansevoort
DD Young
DD Walker
DD Wadsworth
DD Wadleigh
DD Uhlmann

Japanese ground losses:
177 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Airbase hits 21
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 23
Port hits 4
Port supply hits 4

CA Louisville firing at Ketoi-jima

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Ground combat at Ketoi-jima (134,50)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 16929 troops, 213 guns, 384 vehicles, Assault Value = 2275

Defending force 45005 troops, 466 guns, 15 vehicles, Assault Value = 1201

Japanese ground losses:
246 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
208 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
1st Army Tank Regiment
5th Australian Division
4th Marine Division
3rd Marine Division
8th Australian Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
706th Tank Battalion
1st Regiment
148th Field Artillery Battalion
2nd Medium Regiment
237th USN Base Force
4th Field Artillery Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
85th Naval Guard Unit
71st Division
36th Ind.Mixed Brigade
45th Ind.Mixed Brigade
109th Div /1
1st Base Force
5th RF Gun Battalion
25th Special Base Force
34th Const Co
3rd FF Const Unit
49th Mountain Gun Regiment
11th RF Gun Bn /1

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Ground combat at Toungoo (57,50)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 38666 troops, 338 guns, 428 vehicles, Assault Value = 1164

Defending force 27048 troops, 314 guns, 152 vehicles, Assault Value = 577

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Allied adjusted assault: 606

Japanese adjusted defense: 1379

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
884 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 75 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 21 (2 destroyed, 19 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1977 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 267 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 41 disabled

Assaulting units:
14th Indian Division
45th Indian Brigade
1st Manchester Battalion
111th Chindit Brigade
50th Tank Brigade
75th Indian Brigade
77th Chindit Brigade
17th Indian Division
2/9th Field Regiment

Defending units:
108th Division
21st Division
26th Ind.Mixed Bde /1
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
56th Field AA Battalion
125th AA Regiment
Burma Area Army
115th AA Regiment
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion
62nd JAAF AF Bn

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[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 17, 1944[/font]

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I took the chance to have an AAR break since Dan was out hiking the Appalachian trail. He's now back, I've just sent the turn his way, so here is the update. It's a big one!

The night phase had the Allies getting the Iowas in action for the first time in a bombardment of Ketoi. Two BB led TFs worked the island, but troops held fast and some DP guns fired back, probably helping confuse fire at least. A few DDs hit mines, which is always nice and the DP guns did some more work on supply ships unloading.

In the day the air force had their turns, pounding the fields and the troops. Still I felt good about the defence as none of it looked catastrophic.

By the end of the day the attack got a 1:4, with just about 4x as many Allied destroyed and disabled devices. The AV ratio should be significantly better for the defence now, but forts were lower by one to level 4. Now we'll see if the disruption will stay up and supply demand will skyrocket due to overstacking. I did the math a few days ago and I think the Allies had about 72k troops, or ~12k (20%) above the 60k limit.

Now the air strikes and naval bombardments will continue I'm sure, so I'll keep trying to add troops while laying sub carried type 88 mines.
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 17, 1944
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Invasion Support action off Ketoi-jima (134,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

66 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
xAK Kainalu, Shell hits 1
xAK Lihue
xAK Mahukona
xAK Makiki, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage

xAK Kainalu firing at 1st Base Force

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TF 508 encounters mine field at Ketoi-jima (134,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

21 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DMS Ellyson, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Franks, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

DMS Ellyson firing at 1st Base Force
1st Base Force firing at DMS Ellyson
12 mines cleared

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ASW attack near Shasukotan at 134,49

Japanese Ships
SS I-38, hits 10, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Robinson
DD Smalley
DD Sigsbee
DD Sigourney

SS I-38 is sighted by escort
DD Smalley attacking submerged sub ....

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Night Naval bombardment of Ketoi-jima at 134,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

25 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
ACM Nichinan, Shell hits 1, heavy fires

Allied Ships
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa, Shell hits 2
CA Indianapolis
CL Biloxi
CLAA Oakland
DD Knapp
DD Killen
DD Kidd
DD Johnston, Shell hits 1
DD John Henley
DD Heermann
DMS Ellyson

Japanese ground losses:
267 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 10
Port hits 1

OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB New Jersey
BB New Jersey firing at 71st Division

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Night Naval bombardment of Ketoi-jima at 134,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

33 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Alabama
BC Renown
CA Vincennes
CA Quincy, Shell hits 1
CL Raleigh
DD Twining
DD Trathen
DD Tingey
DD The Sullivans
DD Thatcher
DD Stockham
DD Gatling
DD Erben

Japanese ground losses:
276 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11

BB Alabama firing at 71st Division

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Pre-Invasion action off Ketoi-jima (134,50)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

54 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
CA Chicago
AK Albireo, Shell hits 3

CA Chicago firing at 36th Ind.Mixed Brigade

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TF 508 encounters mine field at Ketoi-jima (134,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

10 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DMS Ellyson, Shell hits 7
DD Knapp
DD Killen
DD Kidd
DD Johnston
DD Heermann

1st Base Force firing at DMS Ellyson
21 mines cleared

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TF 508 encounters mine field at Ketoi-jima (134,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

1 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DMS Ellyson, Shell hits 1
DD Killen
DD Johnston, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

1st Base Force firing at DMS Ellyson
DMS Ellyson firing at 1st Base Force
13 mines cleared

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Ketoi-jima (134,50)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 74951 troops, 870 guns, 1424 vehicles, Assault Value = 2269

Defending force 44556 troops, 467 guns, 15 vehicles, Assault Value = 1170

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied adjusted assault: 487

Japanese adjusted defense: 2043

Allied assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1477 casualties reported
Squads: 18 destroyed, 138 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Guns lost 47 (3 destroyed, 44 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
4436 casualties reported
Squads: 102 destroyed, 364 disabled
Non Combat: 20 destroyed, 77 disabled
Engineers: 24 destroyed, 81 disabled
Guns lost 54 (14 destroyed, 40 disabled)
Vehicles lost 111 (23 destroyed, 88 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th Australian Division
1st Army Tank Regiment
8th Australian Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
4th Marine Division
3rd Marine Division
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
706th Tank Battalion
1st Regiment
237th USN Base Force
2nd Medium Regiment
4th Field Artillery Battalion
148th Field Artillery Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
45th Ind.Mixed Brigade
36th Ind.Mixed Brigade
85th Naval Guard Unit
71st Division
109th Div /1
3rd FF Const Unit
5th RF Gun Battalion
25th Special Base Force
34th Const Co
1st Base Force
49th Mountain Gun Regiment
11th RF Gun Bn /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

[obvert]

The other action on the day was exciting, if a bit risky. I sent the KB deep into the NW Pacific. It got to a very good position just to the South of about 200-300 Allied transports, tankers and assorted others. The rollovers had indicated a CVE TF plus a bunch of APA and even some CA, so I'd decided it was worth the risk.

As it turned out those might have been false reports. The KB launched only in the afternoon unfortunately. but did get a hold of a massive group of xAKs and a smaller group of tanker task forces. No carriers or surface combat ships around, and no troop transports of any kind.

Still it is a big hit, and due to the bomb sizes involved, all within normal DB ranges, plus some solid torpedo strikes, many of these ships sank or are in sinking condition, far from friendly ports. It looks like about 50 ships were hit on the day. Some of those, the AOs especially, have a decent VP score. If forty or so don't make it that could be a nice 500 VPs or so gained, but I've gotta get out first!

The KB is now 16 hexes from the DS, and I'm hoping the Allies don't flank and guess our direction. The path I've chosen might be a bit unpredictable, but we'll see. [;)]
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shasukotan at 140,59

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 79
B6N2 Jill x 15
B6N2a Jill x 20
B7A2 Grace x 31
D4Y3 Judy x 21
D4Y4 Judy x 92

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 3 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 12 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
xAK John F. Shafroth
xAK Arizonan, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Seginus, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
AK Beaverhead, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Daniel G. Reid, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Edwin C. Musick, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Charles F. Amidon, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Dorothy Philips
xAK Ferdinand Westdahl, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK John Page
xAK John H. Rosseter, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Dakotan, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Trento, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Syrma, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Ambrose Bierce, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Ada Rehan, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAK Edward P. Alexander, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK David R. Francis, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK David J. Brewer
xAK Charles M. Russell, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Chief Washakie, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Henry L. Gantt, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK B. F. Irvine, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Jeremiah M. Rusk, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Utahan, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Allen Johnson, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK David Lubin, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Charles G. Coutant, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Alexander Woolcott, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK John Alden, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Atlanta City, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
AK Azimech, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Alexander Majors, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Abigail S. Duniway, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Joseph Priestley, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK John Adams
xAK Montgomery City, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAK Arthur P. Davis, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Ben B. Lindsey, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Donald MacLean, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Edward B. Haines, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Edmund Fanning, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Abram S. Hewitt, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Joe C. S. Blackburn, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK William Vaughn Moody
xAK Elwood Mead, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk
xAK James Harlan, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Ben T. Osborne, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Don Marquis, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Ephraim W. Baughman, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Onnekotan-jima at 142,59

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 7 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 11 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
TK Susquehanna, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Shikellamy
TK Andrew Doria, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arethusa
TK Coulie, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
TK Kishwaukee, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Paramushiro-jima at 143,58

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 6 damaged

Allied Ships
AO Winooski
AO Taluga, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AO Enoree, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AO Suamico, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Onnekotan-jima at 142,59

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 5 damaged
B6N2a Jill: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
TK Shikellamy
TK Alfred Clegg
DE Lamons, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Deroche, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B6N2a Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

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[Lecivius]

Ow. That's gonna leave a ding in the finish

[crsutton]

Dan always has liked to mass his ships. He is a big stick kind of player. But sometimes something can be said for dispersion. Japan just can't raid everywhere at this stage of the war, and the Allies can lose too many ships-even with the seemingly endless flow that they get.

“I gave him an unlimited budget and he exceeded it.” Redskins’owner Edward Bennett Williams on coach George Allen.

[mind_messing]

Exploit the free VP's for what they are - free VP's. Chase them down for as long as you can without risking your strategic assets.

I'd even go as far as breaking off several single-DD task forces to hunt them down - a single DD can easily make VP gains without much effort against xAK's, even more so unescorted xAKs. At this stage in the war any proper surface warship will cause them problems.

[Anachro]

Seems a bit risky and reckless to leave those ships unprotected so close to the front lines.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Exploit the free VP's for what they are - free VP's. Chase them down for as long as you can without risking your strategic assets.

I'd even go as far as breaking off several single-DD task forces to hunt them down - a single DD can easily make VP gains without much effort against xAK's, even more so unescorted xAKs. At this stage in the war any proper surface warship will cause them problems.

Agreed. He was asking for it by not providing air cover. Now give 'it' to him. I also agree that spraying a TF of CL/DDs in there will ensure more chaos. Well done. [8D]

[HansBolter]

Two CVE divisions of 8 ships each would have been more than enough to safely escort the vulnerables back to safety....

[witpqs]

Yeah, that will really help the VP ratio at this point in the game! Well done.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Two CVE divisions of 8 ships each would have been more than enough to safely escort the vulnerables back to safety....

If I'd seen two TFs showing CV/CVE, with search as it is in this game, I'd not have tried this at all. Often the identity of task forces is so obscured by massive numbers that I'm wary if I see any indication of massed air power. In this case I saw a bunch of transports and only one TF that looked like CVEs but no aircraft numbers showing. So that's what made my mind up to give it a shot.

So yes, you're absolutely right.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah, that will really help the VP ratio at this point in the game! Well done.

It will if the next few turns go okay. This is dicey territory. It now depends on how aggressive he wants to be in pursuing the KB, and how he reads the tea leaves. I've sent the turn, so now it's in his court.

Does he stay and keep the Japanese from further investing and resupplying Ketoi?

Does he chase and assume the KB will go for more strikes?

Does he try to intercept retreat paths thinking I'll get out while the gettin's good?

Or ... something else?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Seems a bit risky and reckless to leave those ships unprotected so close to the front lines.

Unless it was bait! [X(]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Seems a bit risky and reckless to leave those ships unprotected so close to the front lines.

Unless it was bait! [X(]

There's ways of baiting a trap that involve significantly less clicking.

Plus, there's no sense in throwing away VP's. You're in the end-game, he wins now by getting enough VP's to make the game tell you you've lost!