Do land pre split units follow TOE updates?

[Dili]

As an example, an armored division pre-split in recon regiment, tank regiment, motorized regiment, Art regiment, AT regiment, engineer regiment.

If the parent unit which has the TOE definition upgrades say from 150 tanks to 200 tanks, would the extra 50 appear in tank regiment? Or vice versa if instead the TOE reduces the number of tanks in division they are cut from the regiment?

[Dali101]

If the parent unit which has the TOE definition upgrades say from 150 tanks to 200 tanks, would the extra 50 appear in the tank regiment?

No, they will be replenished every other day ...

Or vice versa if instead the TOE reduces the number of tanks in the division they are cut from the regiment?

Yes, they will be transferred to the pool

[Dili]

Did not understood the first answer Dali can you explain? are you trying to say they will appear in small numbers every day until it reach the 200?

[Dali101]

yes

[Dali101]

Yes. Every day several tanks .. (of course, with plenty of supplies)

[m10bob]

For our newer friends, here is something to watch for.
Sometimes when you split a unit, and later want to re-unite them, it will not re-attach.
This is common if one or more of the sub units were allowed to upgrade, but not all upgraded..A way around this is to mark "DO NOT UPGRADE" before you split them up, and then check to make sure they stayed that way when you broke them down.
Upgrades can be something as minor as the addition of a MG Plt, and that is indicative of the detail built into the game.[:)]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dali101

If the parent unit which has the TOE definition upgrades say from 150 tanks to 200 tanks, would the extra 50 appear in the tank regiment?

No, they will be replenished every other day ...

Or vice versa if instead the TOE reduces the number of tanks in the division they are cut from the regiment?

Yes, they will be transferred to the pool

Have you actually done this because this is not how it is designed to be.

Where the editor created sub units exist on map, the parent LCU does not exist. As it does not exist it's TOE does not exist for the sub units. The sub units themselves either have the general predefined TOE for that particular unit or if not specifically given a TOE, they adopt their existing structure as their TOE.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

For our newer friends, here is something to watch for.
Sometimes when you split a unit, and later want to re-unite them, it will not re-attach.
This is common if one or more of the sub units were allowed to upgrade, but not all upgraded..A way around this is to mark "DO NOT UPGRADE" before you split them up, and then check to make sure they stayed that way when you broke them down.
Upgrades can be something as minor as the addition of a MG Plt, and that is indicative of the detail built into the game.[:)]

What m10bob is pointing out is the practical outcome of what I have posted in the preceding post. For the sub units follow their own TOE which is not that of the parent unit which is itself quite inactive and therefore does not yet exist.

Alfred

[Dili]

Alfred an LCU can have the prim unit in editor filled, pointing to an higher level unit, that unit can have a TOE. Except if that unit also points to an even higher level one.
An example in scenario 1 is the Japanese 4028 slot I./90 Infantry Bn, the prim unit is 3572 the 90th regiment which exist in slot but not "physically" in game, and that unit also have a prim unit slot 3564 107th Division.
That 107 Div. has a TOE. None of the subunits can have a TOE, when we use the Prim Unit field, TOE field automatically turns blank, i suppose this is to not have TOE conflicts.

There is also the split button but my experiments while ago i was unable to build an unit like i wanted so i didn't tested it yet like probably i should.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Alfred an LCU can have the prim unit in editor filled, pointing to an higher level unit, that unit can have a TOE. Except if that unit also points to an even higher level one.
An example in scenario 1 is the Japanese 4028 slot I./90 Infantry Bn, the prim unit is 3572 the 90th regiment which exist in slot but not "physically" in game, and that unit also have a prim unit slot 3564 107th Division.
That 107 Div. has a TOE. None of the subunits can have a TOE, when we use the Prim Unit field, TOE field automatically turns blank, i suppose this is to not have TOE conflicts.

There is also the split button but my experiments while ago i was unable to build an unit like i wanted so i didn't tested it yet like probably i should.

And your point is?[:)]

LCUs only "exist" when on map. On the other hand, TOEs exist independently of what is on map.

All LCUs have a TOE which is either assigned to them in the editor or when not assigned, their de facto TOE becomes, as a one off with no TOE upgrade path, what exists inside the unit. Editor defined sub units therefore are not dependent on what is the editor defined TOE of the primary unit. These sub units will take device replacements as per their own TOE, not that of the primary unit's.

If an editor defined sub unit has a scheduled TOE upgrade then the usual rules for a TOE upgrade apply. Again there is no linkage up to the assigned TOE of the parent. That assigned TOE only determines what is ultimately intended to be inside the parent after it is formed when the sub units are combined.

Alfred

[Dili]

The point is this that you posted :

The sub units themselves either have the general predefined TOE for that particular unit or if not specifically given a TOE, they adopt their existing structure as their TOE.

I am only aware of subunits with automatic TOE, not with editor slot defined TOE, is there a way for it to happen?



edit: the issue is related to the 3 German divisions that arrived in North Africa in sub units and then went convoluted process of TOE changes. For now i am making them whole and not split unfortunately, splitting it seems to have to many pitfalls to compensate for the benefit: issues with TOE updating, sub -unit sunk in sea travel making impossible to merge.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dili

The point is this that you posted :

The sub units themselves either have the general predefined TOE for that particular unit or if not specifically given a TOE, they adopt their existing structure as their TOE.

I am only aware of subunits with automatic TOE, not with editor slot defined TOE, is there a way for it to happen?



edit: the issue is related to the 3 German divisions that arrived in North Africa in sub units and then went convoluted process of TOE changes. For now i am making them whole and not split unfortunately, splitting it seems to have to many pitfalls to compensate for the benefit: issues with TOE updating, sub -unit sunk in sea travel making impossible to merge.

TOE treatment was explained to you some months ago so you might want to go back and refresh your memory.[:)]

I'll go over some basics which you probably already know.

1. In the database there is a range of slots left for TOE templates.

2. The existing TOE templates cover standard TOEs. Thus an Australian 1941 division is standardised. The subsequent refitting for jungle operations is also standardised with a new TOE template.

3. The TOE templates are not restricted to only cover large LCUs such as divisions. You can have a standardised TOE template to cover recon units which operate independently.

4. All LCUs have a TOE. Without it, it would be impossible for the code to know when a unit is understrength and what devices are lacking.

5. For the great majority of LCUs, one of the pre defined standardised TOE templates are assigned. This is the TOE field in the editor. Those relatively few units which are not assigned a pre defined standardised TOE template, by default adopt their existing internal structure as their unique TOE. Technically this unique TOE is not shared by any other unit for each default applies only to that specific unit.

6. Each TOE, whether it is one of the predefined standardised TOE templates or the unique individual default TOE remains in place until the necessary conditions for a TOE upgrade exist. The upgrade is never dependent on another LCU itself upgrading, only on whether the conditions exist for this TOE to be "thrown out" and replaced by a different TOE template.

7. A TOE upgrade can only ever be to a predefined standardised template.


All LCUs enter the game with a TOE, either the predefined standardised template or the default unique. This is why editor defined sub units (which my have either the predefined or unique TOE) when they are combined into their parent LCU you see the parent as having a predefined TOE template. This is why after consolidation into the parent supernumerary devices are often found in the new combined parent unit. These supernumerary devices are a legacy of the old sub unit TOEs and are not part of the now TOE. Not being part of the new TOE the supernumerary devices are never replaced and eventually are attrited away to nothing.

A good ingame exemplar is the Australian 8th AIF division. It starts of on December 141 broken down into its historical sub units. Two bdes are in Malaya, the third bde is broken down into its bns. You can lose any of these editor defined sub units and still reform the entire division precisely because the division TOE is separate from that of the sub units.

Alfred

[Dili]

The 8th Australian Division does not seem to any difference to the organization i pointed above the 107th Division Japanese.

This is why editor defined sub units (which my have either the predefined or unique TOE)...

How editor defined subunits can have a predefined TOE ? that TOE can only be the top parent TOE.

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Thanks for information that a destroyed subunit does not prevent a reform/merge of the parent.