Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and the ones I can't bear

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: UP844
Labelling the Allies as war criminals looks a bit eccessive.

Agreed. I'm sure it happened on rare occasion. But I object to any false moral equivalences that such a focus suggests. If the viewer is left with the perspective that "Americans did it, Germans did it, therefore everyone is equally culpable" then it's not a balanced perspective.

In terms of barbarism, you won't get at the truth of it if you don't hammer on the Russian, German and Japanese behavior to their prisoners in the Second World War. For any German male born between 1900 and 1930, the place they were most statistically likely to survive the war was in a British or American POW camp.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.

Meh. It's what guys in warzones do-play amateur tactician and 'what if' the battle(s) that they're involved in. What they bandied about was a common point of view. Admittedly, their view was self-centered and a little myopic, but that's what all guys in all uniforms do in their '100 yards of Hell'.

warspite1

I'm sure they do. That line in a film that had no reason to mention the British at all was simply gratuitous and unnecessary.

[wodin]

Well all sides broke Geneva conventions. Killing POWs is a war crime I believe.

Then we have things like the bombing of Dresden. You know Arthur Harris would have been hung for war crimes if we lost.

What I'm trying to say through all my reading of WW1 and WW2 many, many terrible things where done to both civilians and unarmed soldiers and POWs by every Nation..

War is all about killing, so by it's very nature is a crime against humanity.

ORIGINAL: UP844

As regards to combat troops killing prisoners or enemy soldiers attempting to surrender, it often happened in the heat of battle and I am sure there are countless episodes we will never know about. Labelling the Allies as war criminals looks a bit eccessive.

By the way, did you ever wonder why Allied troops - unlike the representative of the Herrenrasse - were often slowed by cheering civilians? [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: ezz

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

i thought there were four standout scenes. Most of the rest, did not care for.

But the four -

1. The landing . Which is awesome. Just awesome.
2. The sniper scene.
3. When the wall falls down and the resting Germans are as surprised as the resting Americans.
4. The moment they find Ryan during an ambush.

5. Honourable mentions - the dog tag scene and the knife fight which the German wins, then just walks out of the building and ignores the other yank clerk.

Shame the premise of the film was so shaky to begin with. It would have been very epic without the mush.

As a brit, i was surprised there was a 'fuss' about no brits in SPR. it came after The patriot made all English murderers. And the enigma monstrosity of a movie. It was mostly newspaper American bashing.
there are no Americans or Canadians in the battle Of Britain. Americans never complained.
Come to think of it, not in Zulu either. Did Beevor mention Zulu? Its the ultimate film to disdain these days. Despite being fairly accurate with the history, if not the true characters.

I would add to your list the final fight in that small French town. I thought the 20mm gun against the infantry swarming the tank was brutal and the machine-gunning the German infantry in the street was equally gripping.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.

Meh. It's what guys in warzones do-play amateur tactician and 'what if' the battle(s) that they're involved in. What they bandied about was a common point of view. Admittedly, their view was self-centered and a little myopic, but that's what all guys in all uniforms do in their '100 yards of Hell'.

warspite1

I'm sure they do. That line in a film that had no reason to mention the British at all was simply gratuitous and unnecessary.

I think you've being a little overly sensitive, but to each their own.

[wodin]

I think it was far more common than perhaps people like to believe.

Remember Band of Brothers, the soldier who pretty much charged Foy..well remeber the bit during the invasion he just gunned aload of German POWs on the side of the road....was his name Spear?


More modern, Lone Survivor is an example of what can happen when trying to stay on the right side of moral...a different situation, but still one where killing an unarmed person was for the survival of the team the only thing to do.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: UP844
Labelling the Allies as war criminals looks a bit eccessive.

Agreed. I'm sure it happened on rare occasion. But I object to any false moral equivalences that such a focus suggests. If the viewer is left with the perspective that "Americans did it, Germans did it, therefore everyone is equally culpable" then it's not a balanced perspective.

In terms of barbarism, you won't get at the truth of it if you don't hammer on the Russian, German and Japanese behavior to their prisoners in the Second World War. For any German male born between 1900 and 1930, the place they were most statistically likely to survive the war was in a British or American POW camp.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: wodin
I think it was far more common than perhaps people like to believe.

Like I said, you won't prove false moral equivalences to me in this case. I'm sure it happened with the British and Americans (and French), but not at the rate that it did in other (read: German, Russian and Japanese) armies.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




Meh. It's what guys in warzones do-play amateur tactician and 'what if' the battle(s) that they're involved in. What they bandied about was a common point of view. Admittedly, their view was self-centered and a little myopic, but that's what all guys in all uniforms do in their '100 yards of Hell'.

warspite1

I'm sure they do. That line in a film that had no reason to mention the British at all was simply gratuitous and unnecessary.

I think you've being a little overly sensitive, but to each their own.

warspite1

Not really - as I say, its hardly the biggest thing in the world. Just disappointing, but we are increasingly used to it - WWII starting on 7 December 1941, The British drinking tea on the beach while only ANZACs died at Gallipoli, the British in the 13 Colonies acting like SS Einsatzgruppen, cowardly, bribe taking British officers shooting unarmed Irish steerage-class passengers on the Titanic blah blah. Ces't la vie as we say in Germany.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I'm sure they do. That line in a film that had no reason to mention the British at all was simply gratuitous and unnecessary.

I think you've being a little overly sensitive, but to each their own.

warspite1

Not really - as I say, its hardly the biggest thing in the world. Just disappointing, but we are increasingly used to it - WWII starting on 7 December 1941, The British drinking tea on the beach while only ANZACs died at Gallipoli, the British in the 13 Colonies acting like SS Einsatzgruppen, cowardly, bribe taking British officers shooting unarmed Irish steerage-class passengers on the Titanic blah blah. Ces't la vie as we say in Germany.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




I think you've being a little overly sensitive, but to each their own.

warspite1

Not really - as I say, its hardly the biggest thing in the world. Just disappointing, but we are increasingly used to it - WWII starting on 7 December 1941, The British drinking tea on the beach while only ANZACs died at Gallipoli, the British in the 13 Colonies acting like SS Einsatzgruppen, cowardly, bribe taking British officers shooting unarmed Irish steerage-class passengers on the Titanic blah blah. Ces't la vie as we say in Germany.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

warspite1

....and the first casualty of war is your haircut

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Not really - as I say, its hardly the biggest thing in the world. Just disappointing, but we are increasingly used to it - WWII starting on 7 December 1941, The British drinking tea on the beach while only ANZACs died at Gallipoli, the British in the 13 Colonies acting like SS Einsatzgruppen, cowardly, bribe taking British officers shooting unarmed Irish steerage-class passengers on the Titanic blah blah. Ces't la vie as we say in Germany.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

warspite1

....and the first casualty of war is your haircut

Assuming (big if) you have hair to cut.

[JReb]

There is a fundamental difference between a lone soldier or even a platoon of soldiers acting in clear violation of their own laws and military regulations; and nation-states that, through legislative action, make ethnic extermination an acceptable expression of state-sponsored policy.

[Agathosdaimon]

ORIGINAL: JReb

There is a fundamental difference between a lone soldier or even a platoon of soldiers acting in clear violation of their own laws and military regulations; and nation-states that, through legislative action, make ethnic extermination an acceptable expression of state-sponsored policy.

yes my thoughts exactly - though was what the 3rd Reich did in terms industrial scale genocide, done through "legislative action" i thought it was mostly organised somewhat clandestinely and outside the rule of law (which was how their "governance" of poland was conducted ) , the concept of the "Rechtstaat" having been more or less suspended indefinitely - the legal institutions were wholly captured by the nazis so there was no way they could act as a separate constraining force