Sub Combat issue

[Majorball68]

Axis intercept a moving CW TF with 7 ships and the CW player decides to fight through. The Axis end up with 10 surprise points and choose Sub combat despite no CP in the Sea area which is permitted. The Axis take there whack in damage but then a message appears saying there are no enemy ships present and the Axis does not get the chance to use its 6 surprise points to choose a target. The RAC 11.5.11 "If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise points to choose a submarine combat; see 11.5.7) then you fight on the ‘0’ ships row." So despite there being 7 CW ships the damage is worked out as if they have 0-1 ships. The rules also state "Losses inflicted by the SUB side can only be taken on convoys (unless someone spends 3 surprise points to inflict them on another target). If convoy points can take no further losses, ignore any remaining losses (unless you spend surprise points to select another target)."

I tested this with a single CP in the sea area and the option to select a target was available.

My question is should it be permitted for the Axis to use its 6 surprise points to choose a targets in sub combat despite no CP in the area? After all it is a sub combat and why would the rules state to use the 0-1 Enemy ships column if not permitted. How would the Axis ever sink a CV if they have to be on the surface? The rules should just state its not possible to inflict any damage at all regardless of surprise points.


So to recreate on the save attached the CW move the CV Courageous, CV Ark Royal, CV Illustrious, BB Renown, BB Hood, CA Effingham and CA Southampton into the West med from Gilbraltar. Axis intercept with a 3, CW ships attempt to fight through from 0 box, no air support is added and CW roll a 9 for their search roll.

[Majorball68]

This is the message that appears when it is usually the stage a player gets the opportunity to spend 3 surprise points to choose a target.

[Majorball68]

If anyone knows anything it would help a lot to move along an ongoing game.

[Centuur]

This is a bug...

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

This is a bug...

There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

tm.asp?m=4410040&mpage=1&key=submarine% ... t&#4414052

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

ORIGINAL: Centuur

This is a bug...

There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

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That's exactly the problem I have with the wording of RAW7 (on which the game is based). It isn't in there.The ruling of RAW7 is clear that one can select a box without CP, spend 4 surprise points and another 3 on selecting the target. If you than have a nice X on the 0-1 ships row, that ship you selected has a problem. But apparently, other people tend to disagree, but I've not seen any clear statement from the developers that this is not RAW7.
And it's historically sound too...

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

ORIGINAL: Centuur

This is a bug...

There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

tm.asp?m=4410040&mpage=1&key=submarine%2Ccombat�

That's exactly the problem I have with the wording of RAW7 (on which the game is based). It isn't in there.The ruling of RAW7 is clear that one can select a box without CP, spend 4 surprise points and another 3 on selecting the target. If you than have a nice X on the 0-1 ships row, that ship you selected has a problem. But apparently, other people tend to disagree, but I've not seen any clear statement from the developers that this is not RAW7.
And it's historically sound too...

Ok. So I guess its something we need to agree on with our opponent prior to starting a game but the game is coded to not allow attacks on ships without CP present..

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

ORIGINAL: Centuur

This is a bug...

There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

tm.asp?m=4410040&mpage=1&key=submarine%2Ccombat�

That's exactly the problem I have with the wording of RAW7 (on which the game is based). It isn't in there.The ruling of RAW7 is clear that one can select a box without CP, spend 4 surprise points and another 3 on selecting the target. If you than have a nice X on the 0-1 ships row, that ship you selected has a problem. But apparently, other people tend to disagree, but I've not seen any clear statement from the developers that this is not RAW7.
And it's historically sound too...

IMO you are absolutely right. You should be able to switch to Surface Combat. You shouldn't even need to spend 3 surprise points to select a target unless you want a specific one.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Majorball68




There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

tm.asp?m=4410040&mpage=1&key=submarine%2Ccombat�

That's exactly the problem I have with the wording of RAW7 (on which the game is based). It isn't in there.The ruling of RAW7 is clear that one can select a box without CP, spend 4 surprise points and another 3 on selecting the target. If you than have a nice X on the 0-1 ships row, that ship you selected has a problem. But apparently, other people tend to disagree, but I've not seen any clear statement from the developers that this is not RAW7.
And it's historically sound too...

IMO you are absolutely right. You should be able to switch to Surface Combat. You shouldn't even need to spend 3 surprise points to select a target unless you want a specific one.

Unfortunately, that's against the rules. You need surprise points to be able to attack ships other than convoys...

RAW:

Losses inflicted by the SUB side can only be taken on convoys (unless
someone spends 3 surprise points to inflict them on another target). If
convoy points can take no further losses, ignore any remaining losses
(unless you spend surprise points to select another target).

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Majorball68




There has been some discussion previously and what I am having trouble understanding is why they just don't state that subs cannot attack surface ships with submarine combat unless CP's are present? Why even mention the Subs fight on the 0-1 column with no CP's present regardless of how many surface ships are present? Seems pointless to even mention they fight on the 0-1 ships column when they cant attack them with using surprise points. From the discussion in the thread below it still remains inconclusive. Its not like they can do a lot of damage anyway as the 0-1 column isn't that great so it seemed logical that subs could attack surface ships in Submarine combat with no CP present.

tm.asp?m=4410040&mpage=1&key=submarine%2Ccombat�

That's exactly the problem I have with the wording of RAW7 (on which the game is based). It isn't in there.The ruling of RAW7 is clear that one can select a box without CP, spend 4 surprise points and another 3 on selecting the target. If you than have a nice X on the 0-1 ships row, that ship you selected has a problem. But apparently, other people tend to disagree, but I've not seen any clear statement from the developers that this is not RAW7.
And it's historically sound too...

Ok. So I guess its something we need to agree on with our opponent prior to starting a game but the game is coded to not allow attacks on ships without CP present..

Perhaps the CPs have to be there in the first place?

In other words, if there are CPs included in the combat, you can choose submarine combat and then pick targets with surprise points. But without CPs a choice of sub combat is no different than spending 4 surprise to choose air-to-sea when neither side has aircraft included.

[paulderynck]

It's important to remember that both RAWs say "A surface action pits each side’s surface ships and SUBs against the other in a gunnery/ torpedo duel. A submarine combat pits one side’s SUBs against the other’s escorts and convoys."

Submarine combat does not mean subs hiding below the surface and firing torpedoes, and surface combat does not mean subs on the surface firing pea-shooter deck guns at BBs. They mean what the rules say they mean.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's important to remember that both RAWs say "A surface action pits each side’s surface ships and SUBs against the other in a gunnery/ torpedo duel. A submarine combat pits one side’s SUBs against the other’s escorts and convoys."

Submarine combat does not mean subs hiding below the surface and firing torpedoes, and surface combat does not mean subs on the surface firing pea-shooter deck guns at BBs. They mean what the rules say they mean.

No, I don't buy that. Here's RAW a little further on choosing naval combat types.

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);

And at submarine combat:

Submarine combat allows you to attack enemy convoy points. Either
side can also spend surprise points to pick a submarine combat even if
there are no subs or convoy points included (see 11.5.7).

Nowhere is there a sentence where it says that if there are no convoy points present, you cannot fight a submarine combat. On the contrary:

If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise
points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on
the ‘0’ ships row.

This sentence is the key for me. This clearly means that you can fight a submarine combat in a sea area with no convoy points. Because if that would not be the case, why is this sentence in RAW?

[paulderynck]

Because it's a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

At least this is so in RAW7. In RAW8, it is much clearer that you must have CPs included. I even asked Harry if in RAW8, could you include targets in a higher box along with CPs in the zero box so that you could fight a sub combat (note I said "fight" not "choose") the answer was: Yes.

[paulderynck]

Let's break these sentences down.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No, I don't buy that. Here's RAW a little further on choosing naval combat types.

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);

Does "not normally allowed" mean anything to you? It's the same point as A2S with no aircraft. Choosing the combat type does not necessarily mean fighting that combat type.

And at submarine combat:

Submarine combat allows you to attack enemy convoy points. Either
side can also spend surprise points to pick a submarine combat even if
there are no subs or convoy points included (see 11.5.7).

First sentence can only mean one thing. Ever thought about your point from the reverse side of the second sentence? Choose a sub combat with no subs included. Why would that be done and why?

Nowhere is there a sentence where it says that if there are no convoy points present, you cannot fight a submarine combat. On the contrary:

Both RAWs say no more combat results can be applied if there are no CPs.

If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise
points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on
the ‘0’ ships row.

This sentence is the key for me. This clearly means that you can fight a submarine combat in a sea area with no convoy points. Because if that would not be the case, why is this sentence in RAW?

That doesn't negate the point above about combat results when doing submarine combat. So I grant you can choose and fight one like that in RAW7 (due to that sentence which is absent in RAW8), but you still need to spend surprise points to pick every target and will get a minimal target profile.

As it is your last "key" sentence that has been erased from the rules in RAW8; I personally have no problem with MWiF working as described in Post #1. I think it is more in line with the designer's original intent, as proven by the way he has rewritten sub combat for RAW8.

If you can convince Steve that this is a bug due to MWiF being programmed per RAW7, then the next thing you'll need to do is find a way to elevate that bug's priority.

[Joseignacio]

I am not sure I am following all that I am reading, seems too complex... but I have one comment, you can have valid objectives along with convoys (escorts) in 8.106, defender's choice

Losses inflicted by the SUB side may be any included naval unit if the SUB player spends 3 surprise points. Otherwise every odd (1st, 3rd, 5th etc) loss must be convoy points; and every even loss must be either convoy points, a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice). Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Let's break these sentences down.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No, I don't buy that. Here's RAW a little further on choosing naval combat types.

1. You can choose the combat type if you spend 4 surprise points.
You can even choose a combat type not normally allowed (e.g.
SUB combat even if no enemy convoy points are included);

Does "not normally allowed" mean anything to you? It's the same point as A2S with no aircraft. Choosing the combat type does not necessarily mean fighting that combat type.

And at submarine combat:

Submarine combat allows you to attack enemy convoy points. Either
side can also spend surprise points to pick a submarine combat even if
there are no subs or convoy points included (see 11.5.7).

First sentence can only mean one thing. Ever thought about your point from the reverse side of the second sentence? Choose a sub combat with no subs included. Why would that be done and why?

Nowhere is there a sentence where it says that if there are no convoy points present, you cannot fight a submarine combat. On the contrary:

Both RAWs say no more combat results can be applied if there are no CPs.

If no convoy points are included (only possible if you spent surprise
points to choose a submarine combat ~ see 11.5.7) then you fight on
the ‘0’ ships row.

This sentence is the key for me. This clearly means that you can fight a submarine combat in a sea area with no convoy points. Because if that would not be the case, why is this sentence in RAW?

That doesn't negate the point above about combat results when doing submarine combat. So I grant you can choose and fight one like that in RAW7 (due to that sentence which is absent in RAW8), but you still need to spend surprise points to pick every target and will get a minimal target profile.

As it is your last "key" sentence that has been erased from the rules in RAW8; I personally have no problem with MWiF working as described in Post #1. I think it is more in line with the designer's original intent, as proven by the way he has rewritten sub combat for RAW8.

If you can convince Steve that this is a bug due to MWiF being programmed per RAW7, then the next thing you'll need to do is find a way to elevate that bug's priority.

It is a bug, since MWIF is based on the Rules As Coded and not on RAW8 or any other ruleset for WiF. If this effect was unintentional in RAW7, than why is that sentence still in Rules as Coded? And why wasn't it clarified in the FAQ of the boardgame? The fact that it is included in RAC means that it should be coded in MWIF. That is how I feel about this. So this is a bug. You cannot say that the rules should be coded this way but hey: we decided to do something completely different. That's not how things should be done, IMHO.

Elevate this bugs priority? I've never said that it needed to be fixed now, did I? That's for Steve to decide. But the bug itself: he's written RAC so he has to commit himself to that book, I believe...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I am not sure I am following all that I am reading, seems too complex... but I have one comment, you can have valid objectives along with convoys (escorts) in 8.106, defender's choice

Losses inflicted by the SUB side may be any included naval unit if the SUB player spends 3 surprise points. Otherwise every odd (1st, 3rd, 5th etc) loss must be convoy points; and every even loss must be either convoy points, a CV or an SCS in the 0 sea-box section (owner’s choice). Once there are no further convoys to suffer losses, all remaining losses inflicted by the subs are ignored.

Yes in RAW8, but that is a totally different dynamic then what is under discussion.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is a bug, since MWIF is based on the Rules As Coded and not on RAW8 or any other ruleset for WiF. If this effect was unintentional in RAW7, than why is that sentence still in Rules as Coded? And why wasn't it clarified in the FAQ of the boardgame? The fact that it is included in RAC means that it should be coded in MWIF. That is how I feel about this. So this is a bug. You cannot say that the rules should be coded this way but hey: we decided to do something completely different. That's not how things should be done, IMHO.

Elevate this bugs priority? I've never said that it needed to be fixed now, did I? That's for Steve to decide. But the bug itself: he's written RAC so he has to commit himself to that book, I believe...

Bully for you.