H2H fr and Machine guns

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:01 pm

Single medium machine gun units like MG42 Lafette, cal30 MMG ect. don´t work when you give them to the AI! They are reclassed in H2H fr version as "pack mules"!:eek: In AI hands "Pack mule" and "truck" class units run to the retreat hex, as soon as these units are in sight of the enemy, so the new MMG units in H2H fr are unusable when the AI plays them. Probably all H2H (non PBEM) scenarios are probably effected now!

I suggest to change back the MMG units to what they were in "ce". It´s not worth the trouble to have shoot and scoot MMGs IMHO.

Gary Tatro · Post by **Gary Tatro** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:25 pm

Why are you playing vs the computer in a system that was specifically designed for Head-2-Head. The senarios you are talking about was also designed for Head-2-Head. That means playing against another human.

I can understand your frustration. But FR H2H system was designed for playing vs a human player. So I do not see why he needs to change something that is currently more realistic and historical and works for the type of play that he designed the system for. If you want to play vs the computer I suggest you play Version 7.1, all the same senario's and many more that are available in Fr H2H mode are available in Version 7.1.

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:42 pm

well,...just in case anbody plays the AI in H2H fr.

In the H2H fr release are 3 scenarios of mine specifically made for play against the AI and these scenarios were made BEFORE the "fr" changes. They are broken now, as well as all the other scenarios specifically made for play vs. AI and using AI controlled MMG units.

Off course there´s not really a need to change back the "so realistic" MMGs in H2H fr. Just take it as FYI.

have fun

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:18 pm

i plan on playing the one or other scen in H2H as soon as i got time...perhaps other ppl., too !

also i want to play the stalingrad camp. which is probably affected, too.

perhaps leo can take a look at this ?

sztartur2 · Post by **sztartur2** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:48 pm

I am a great fan of PBEM but...

I like to play H2H with AI as well.

There is a campaign for H2H (against the AI) named Stalingrad and also there is the campaign named Flesh and Steel. Not to mention the others+the scenarios.
I am making a big scenario vs AI for H2H myself.

Artur.

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:01 pm

Originally posted by Frank W.
i plan on playing the one or other scen in H2H as soon as i got time...perhaps other ppl., too !

also i want to play the stalingrad camp. which is probably affected, too.

perhaps leo can take a look at this ?

The Stalingrad Campaign is not effected...that's the good news

Rockin' Harry is right, that MMGs will have strange behaviour under AI control.

But I thought more of fixing the scenarios, then to go back to the old MGs.

There should be some workarounds possible to get the wanted behaviour...what about speed 0 for them in most cases, Harry ?

BTW...now one can imagine what long way I went to finally go with Pack Mules...
First I had them as bycicles...then I found out, that they couldn't enter buildings (but cavalry can...)...so I switched to cavalry, but now they couldn't be loaded...into anything !!!
So there was only one class left I could use...the Pack Mules

With all the testing now, I'm very pleased with the MMGs under human control...how does everyone else feel about it ?

VikingNo2 · Post by **VikingNo2** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:24 pm

The MGs are deadly and preform very well under human contol, I am being chewed up by German MGs in one game and chewing up German with US MGs in another. AT guns being able to defend them selves are nice to

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:11 am

From the very begining of Pz Leo's Web Site:

H2H fr (final release)

This module upgrades any existing Steel Panthers World At War version by Matrix Games starting from 5.0 up to the latest 7.1. It was primarily made for Human vs. Human play, but it also works against the AI like previous SPWAW versions.

Seems to me there is no intent is for Heavy Weapons to transform into livestock.

Macabre · Post by **Macabre** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:28 am

Hi Panzer Leo,

Your MOD is great for PBEM. I enjoy the ability to move mgs and still be able to lay down some suppression and I'm sure my opponent is enjoying it even more.
I have both versions of SPWaW installed on my machine, 7.1 is great if I decide to take on the AI but H2H rules when I battle a real opponent.
Thanks for all your hard work.

Cheers!

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:17 am

Another workaround for scenario designers could be in the case of a MG42 to take a Finnish heavy MG, change it's main weapon and the statistics and there you go with a MG42 like it is in 7.1...

I know I took the "risk" to disrupt the one or other scenario, by including this feature, but I also was pretty sure one can quite easily adjust to it...I'll take a closer look at the existing scenarios and we'll see what we can do...

And as you (Harry) are one of the most skilled scenario designers especially in terms of tweaking units towards a wanted battle behaviour, this one should be a piece of cake for you

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:29 pm

Not to be misunderstood here, I didn´t want to sound negative against Panzer leo´s H2H fr mod!;) I just wanted to point to some issue that I found while converting my latest V7.1 scenario (Stockheim Clash) to H2H mod. That should say it all and If I ever get private online access from home, i´ll start PBEM too!

Btw, Joerg you really did some clever hacks to the files!:D

I at first was pretty confused seeing the MMG´s classed as "Medium Machine guns" in the game, but then found them to be actually classed as "Pack mules" in the OOB editor!:eek:

However, "pack mules" and "trucks" are moved by the AI to the retreat flags as mentioned, as well as the "height advatage" modifier for the normal "MG" classes is bypassed too.

Also "pack mule" classed units appear to be much more vulnerable to enemy fire.

If you still see these MMG´s delivering deadly firepower, then it´s due to the crew multiplier for the slot1 weapon! (crew 4-6 x slot1 weapon!).

Workaround is as PL says, to use normal MMG units (if you find some!:eek: ) and edit them so that they have the same attributes like the "pack mule" classed one in use. Also workable is normal infantry class, like the german "LMG team" with crew of 2.

Oh..i forgot to mention yet another issue with the "pack mule" classed MG´s: They don´t OP fire in human player turn!:( (I tested AI with "Defend" mission only yet)

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:30 pm

okay,some feedback:

the mg´s are generally more deadly now, right ? no matter if lmg or hmg... i don´t know if the mg34/42 were really such deadly on bigger ranges because allied soldiers find them quite unaccurate. they even prefered there own weapons before the germans, despite the better ROF.

snipers are better, too

panzerschreck are better !
m9´s somewhat weaker.
perhaps the speed of the pz.schreck teams is somewhat too high still, because these were quite heavy things..

i find from my first H2H games that the germans are somewhat stronger but more expensive. in normal SPWAW the tiger e tanks weren´t so fearful IMHO, i mostly found a way to get rid of them but in H2H they seem to be better... even 85mm sideshots don´t kill them...

i can be wrong here, becaue it´s only short time experience.

btw: i have 2 US priests in one game and found out none of them has smoke rounds.....

VikingNo2 · Post by **VikingNo2** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:20 pm

Yes the Tiger is more feared now. I have found that the German's are indeed more difficult to play against.

The Russian have been reworked a graet deal, look at your ammo loads very carefully.

In general all the nations tanks that I have played, Russia, Japan, Italy, US, UK, and Germany. Are different and Can kill each other, With the German Tiger and the M36 Jackson being the best at killing in one shot. ( Still trying to play more games to get a better take )

Infantry: Germans are more dangerous, Russians are less dangerous, ( but you get more). Americans are less dangerous to tanks but still fight well. British are much better fighters ( I have not fought the German with them yet ). Japan about the same. Italy, they are not bad but don't have staying power(they have allot of flame producing capabilities)

AT guns, almost impossible to spot.

Arty, more effective.

Everything is harder to spot.

This is my take so far. I enjoy H2H but I am looking foward to the upgade of 7.1. RB was right H2H is a slower paced game.

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:21 am

Originally posted by RockinHarry

If you still see these MMG´s delivering deadly firepower, then it´s due to the crew multiplier for the slot1 weapon! (crew 4-6 x slot1 weapon!).

I think this is not the case...if the MMGs firepower would be counted 4 or 6 times, we would see different results...they kill, but do not annihilate at once...
If your theory would eb correct, a 9 men MG42 Grp would be much deadlier then a 4 men Team...but it is not, as far as I know...

The slot 1 MG is set as "team weapon" and therefore should be counted only once...I will look into it, but I'm pretty sure...

The downhill bonus does still work...at least in my testing and the MGs do not appear to get killed easier...Pack Mules were larger in size and I ofcourse changed that...the durability was o.k. as far as I can tell from my PBEM games.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:26 am

Originally posted by VikingNo2
RB was right H2H is a slower paced game.

Ah, Ha! Vindication! YES!:D

And, yes it certainly is. FrankW and I didn't fire one shot at each other the first 3 turns of an 18 turn game and that was only scouts engaging each other.

In our game, V2, we are being very, very careful about exposing ourselves to AT-gun fire and have pretty much settled into only contesting and probing just to either side of the ubiquitous central ridge line of the map.

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:46 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

The slot 1 MG is set as "team weapon" and therefore should be counted only once...I will look into it, but I'm pretty sure...

That would be a different matter, I agree.

Btw,..why are so many K98k rifle versions included in the german OOB?

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

The downhill bonus does still work...at least in my testing and the MGs do not appear to get killed easier...Pack Mules were larger in size and I ofcourse changed that...the durability was o.k. as far as I can tell from my PBEM games.

So you think the "downhill bonus" is not tied to the machine gun "class"?

well,..I have something different in memory though.

Re: easy "pack mule" class kills. I think I saw repeatedly that single shots killed the units like sometimes the odd "bycicly class" units are killed!

Ok,..I know how to workaround the issues in Human vs. AI games, so I don´t care about this topic anymore. Beside the above mentioned issues I love the H2H mod as is! great work!

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:32 pm

Originally posted by RockinHarry
That would be a different matter, I agree.
Btw,..why are so many K98k rifle versions included in the german OOB?

For balancing reasons.

I have German units like FJ, who got 3x MP38/40 in slot 3. They would have quite an adavantage over other units, as all men are counted to fire a 98k and 3 additional MPs.
Therefore I reduced the accuracy of the 98k in slot 1 and get a bit fewer kills, to simulate the effect only 3 or 4 guys fire them, instead of the whole squad.

Another thing is Volkssturm...to make them differ from Volksgrenadiere (to make them worser actually), I reduced their 98k in effect also (or Hitlerjugend Panzerfaust, e.g.)...so simply said to model a units actual battle performence despite the limits the system gives

So you think the "downhill bonus" is not tied to the machine gun "class"? well,..I have something different in memory though.

Test it...the MMGs are way more lethal downhill...

Re: easy "pack mule" class kills. I think I saw repeatedly that single shots killed the units like sometimes the odd "bycicly class" units are killed!

Haven't seen that yet and completed several PBEMs by now...

Ok,..I know how to workaround the issues in Human vs. AI games, so I don´t care about this topic anymore. Beside the above mentioned issues I love the H2H mod as is! great work!

Great to hear...BTW, I'm right now playing a PBEM on a city map I changed with your ruined rowhouses...I converted Arnhem to destroyed Berlin '45 and it looks great !!! I don't even care about winning or loosing...it's just fun to run around in these new terrains

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:46 pm

Btw, my latest Stockheim Clash scenario H2H fr version is uploaded to wargamer.com scenario depot two days ago, but it´s not yet up as it seems.

Also makes some use of the shape file add ons.

Glad to hear the ruined rowhouses are well received!:D

Can you send me the tweaked Arnhem map? I would like to make some experiment with the houses, terrain data wise and then send it back to you for testing!

Re: K98k rifles. Would have wished in every OOB to also have a limited range version of common infantry rifles like Garand, Lee Enfield ect.

Stockheim Clash uses the K98k from slot 178, IIRC and with your cool 60% setting for "Searching" the AI is now a much better "ambusher" too!:mad:

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:49 pm

Don´t know how long it takes for wargamer.com to get a recently uploaded scenario readied, so here is it too:

have fun:)

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:56 pm

Probably should open new thread, but who cares anyway?:rolleyes:

Here´s just the map used by above Stockheim scenario in two versions. One with and one without that much mud terrain, ready for use in PBEM. Note: just as the scenario these only work with latest H2H fr install of Steel Panthers!!!! .....due to use of new shape files included only in "H2H fr" mod at this time.

Have fun

H2H fr and Machine guns

H2H fr and Machine guns

RH

H2H fr - Human vs. Human

STOCKHEIM CLASH H2H fr