German panzer divisions notes

[chaos45]

So was just doing some quick research on German panzer divisions....

So 18th panzer division was disbanded because of extremely low morale and desertion...maybe its needs a permanent morale/quality lowering in the game if its performance was that bad.

An additional note I found was that the Soviets found the 5th panzer division to be one of the best german panzer divisions...and based on its performance in at least slowing bagration when it was deployed there maybe it needs upgraded to elite status in line with like GD/SS formations in 43 or some such to show its excellence in defensive mobile warfare.

Just some thoughts.

[Aufklaerungs]

Actually, 18th Pz division morale did not crash until suffering heavy losses during Zitadelle/Rumyantsev/Kutuzov actions in August 43 and was reformed into the 18th Artillery Division (first of its kind for the wehrmacht/heere). Your idea is sound if you are designing a scenario that starts after mid-August, 1943.

Have spent over 1500 hours playing WitE. IMO, the largest disincentive I have to recommending the game to others is the selective scripting of combat effects and unit deployments that occurred historically. No problems with basing the starting positions for both sides, but reject completely the idea that situational developments somehow have to mirror history. Axis players who opt not to direct AGS to both Stalingrad + Caucasus in 1942 should not necessarily experience the destruction of 6th Army + Axis Allies, but instead are saddled with the casualty and logistical catastrophic losses of the historic flawed Fall Blau. Logistical developments (eg, TOEs-OBs and force ratios) should only be based upon the skill (successes or failures) of the respective players. The problems associated with player balance need to hinge more on battle results, not predetermined, comprehensive emulations historical outcomes.

Alternatively, the initial readiness scripted for the Soviet military districts in the 41 Barbarossa campaign scenarios is absurdly a-historical considering the lack of the prepared defense positions, ammunition and transport that contributed more to initial Axis success than some artificial CV ratio programmed into Turn One. Historically the Soviet MDs were abysmally prepared. State of training and tactical skills displayed was abysmal. Wheeled transport was practically non-existent for motorized combat formations. Coordination of command, control and communications was abysmal until the end of the first week of July when the GKO/Stavka was finally able to piece together a somewhat accurate picture of the actual operational situation.

[chaos45]

THe problem with your argument is its a game...and unfortunately due to the limitations of the game system some things arent working anywhere near historical....esp losses.

Read German panzer loss reports from 1941/1942....you will never ever see that in this game period. About the half the German panzer divisions never even recovered after 1941...many permanently disbanded panzer battalions because they had no tanks and never got enough replacements to rebuild them.

18th panzer div was one of those divisions that took very heavy losses in 1941 and never fully recovered and its morale did completely crash after Kursk I agree...but when you compare it to other German panzer divisions that did not have the massive loss of morale it obviously would be considered a lower quality unit and maybe shouldnt merit the panzer +10 morale elite status all german motorized formations have in the game.

However if as I think it merit 5th panzer performed better than most german units it perhaps merits the higher than normal as an exceptional panzer division is all I'm saying....since many divisions in the German OOB get this distinction while some german divisions as in the 18th panzer prolly needs knocked down a peg.

If you really dig into divisional histories you can find this in several german infantry divisions as well---where some stood up to really massive soviet attacks while others disintegrated under the pressure...combination of training, leadership, and defense preparations. Which is why I mentioned the morale lever for the panzer divisions as it represents all of those things in how the game system of WITE works.

Also unless your a complete idiot you will never suffer the losses the Germans did historically until about 1943...and thats only if you let the soviets encircle you...as so many soviet hindrances are built into the system, and the losses system is complete rubbish for combat. Play alot vs human players and you will see this. So you have design to the game system more than historical to get something like historical outcomes. Its why German panzer divisions stay at like 90%+ strength for the entire war almost instead of fighting at more like 50-75% or less as was more common in the actual war.

[Aufklaerungs]

The problem with my argument? What argument? My opinion is that simulations pre-loaded with pre-ordained outcomes are not particularly interesting to me and other players who expect outcomes to be based on their operational/strategic decisions.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, especially the gratuitous condescending suggestions that I need to read up on subjects I have studied in great depth for more than 25 years.

Enjoy playing the game for years to come.

(Arguments not included)

[RedLancer]

Please don't fall out. If we were all in a bar and chatting over a beer then I'm sure things wouldn't be so confrontational.

I think you are both correct. Please remember that to balance a game of this complexity we have to use the AI so we can play numerous games in days rather than a couple in a year. That means that for the longer campaigns tactical accuracy is lost against higher level themes. We have to keep within a broadly historical perspective. Of course a great player will have the skills to fly in the face of history and that is the fun of the game but it doesn't make the game bad it just demonstrates the superiority of the human intellect. Short scenarios are so much easier but we all want to win the War and not just a battle. When I lose I rewrite the scenario but that's just me.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

When I lose I rewrite the scenario but that's just me.

Haha brilliant Hitler must of missed that memo!

[leverkuhn]

The problem Chaos45 is pointing at is similar to ToEs not reflecting production. Late in the game Axis ends up with lots of Tigers in the pools because all the heavy tank battalions are full, and I'm sure the could be said about soviet tanks. Unthinkable in a real-life scenario.

Good operational performance should be somehow rewarded in game terms.