Using artillery..
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Why have limits , aside from agreeing on the total points , in PBEM at all, why not let each player just buy what he wants that is available for that year and nation. Biggest Problem SPWAW has is sameness game from game , predictable AI , map limit to map limit forces. If you want to dictate what the other guy can buy why don't you just play the other guys forces too? Gawds .. What the heck are you guys so afraid of ? Somebody doing something unexpected ? Coming up with a novel approach ? Why do you guys need to control what the Other Guy brings to the battle? Not every Army in the world has a similar tank to infantry to artillery to airpower ratio , they can be radically different from nation to nation, not that you guys would ever know .. geese louise what a bunch of wimps .
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
The ONLY reason folks can't cope with Artillery is that they don't play against it often enough , they take no pains to learn countermeasures or tactics to defeat arty. Arty isn't just some insurmountable weapon that just happen to you, that you can't do anything about . It is something that requires some different tactics to overcome.. but IN SPWAW the way you overcome something is whine and moan on the forum till it gets dumbed down or negotiated away. LAME
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Why do I place arty limits? Well, having played without limits, I can tell you it is the most boring game to play (H2H.fr is quickly becoming the second most). Everything gets pinned down and you can hardly move. I want to play fun games, not boring games. Why does that make me a whimp?
More points to arty = fewer units on board = fewer targets & they are pinned more easily = BORING (Think WWI, Verdun)
More points to arty = fewer units on board = fewer targets & they are pinned more easily = BORING (Think WWI, Verdun)
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Artillery and machine guns made WW I what it was -- a battle of attrition. Too much arty, I agree, bogs it real fast. C&C limits this somewhat, but given practice you can litterally freeze an advance in its tracks. So I agree with you on that point.
The other side of this is that arty can't really hold ground and eventually runs out of ammo. Infiltrators reduce the bog a bit, and if it's on-board, the arty is vulnerable. There are tactics useful for getting around the stuff, but it takes time. That, however, is the challenge in a high-arty game. Once you get close to the opponent's ground troops, the arty is as deadly to them as it is to you -- and you are likely to still have more of them.
I agree to limits because, with rare exception, artillery wasn't as prevalent in WW II as in the previous Big One. The battlefield belonged to the armor.
I think the choice is just in the deffinition of a "fun game."
Sorry, quick edit:
A limit on artillery favors the attacker in a defend scenario. Since its 2.5:1 or higher ratio, the defender, who generally would have better arty assets, can put in less than the attacker.
The other side of this is that arty can't really hold ground and eventually runs out of ammo. Infiltrators reduce the bog a bit, and if it's on-board, the arty is vulnerable. There are tactics useful for getting around the stuff, but it takes time. That, however, is the challenge in a high-arty game. Once you get close to the opponent's ground troops, the arty is as deadly to them as it is to you -- and you are likely to still have more of them.
I agree to limits because, with rare exception, artillery wasn't as prevalent in WW II as in the previous Big One. The battlefield belonged to the armor.
I think the choice is just in the deffinition of a "fun game."
Sorry, quick edit:
A limit on artillery favors the attacker in a defend scenario. Since its 2.5:1 or higher ratio, the defender, who generally would have better arty assets, can put in less than the attacker.
Challenge
War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.
War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.
Frank W.
Sure, that's fine. You folks and your love for the US (Viking *shudders* *turns on the light* *looks for M9 teams outside his window*)...
Me: GE
You: US
Points - Whatever.
Arty - 10%
Snipers - Sure, you get a ton of those, I'll get a ton of MG42s and some 2-man spotter teams, a wall of Sturmtigers, and you rush me, K?
No, I'm fine with whatever setup, my personal favorites are infiltrators, air-drops are candy. If you're busy, I could go ahead and set it up.
It should be good. You've got the experience, I've got the... well... umm... Germans!(?)
I'm genuinely looking forward to it though.
Just let me know what is best for you buddy.
~Vath
Sure, that's fine. You folks and your love for the US (Viking *shudders* *turns on the light* *looks for M9 teams outside his window*)...
Me: GE
You: US
Points - Whatever.
Arty - 10%
Snipers - Sure, you get a ton of those, I'll get a ton of MG42s and some 2-man spotter teams, a wall of Sturmtigers, and you rush me, K?
No, I'm fine with whatever setup, my personal favorites are infiltrators, air-drops are candy. If you're busy, I could go ahead and set it up.
It should be good. You've got the experience, I've got the... well... umm... Germans!(?)
I'm genuinely looking forward to it though.
Just let me know what is best for you buddy.
~Vath
Please be clear about what I am saying .. I am NOT advocating large masses of artillery when I say no limits / let the other guys buy what they want. I am saying that one player has no right to dictate the other players forces. I am saying that air should be decided by the computer at default settings . I am saying that one guy shouldn't be able to tailor his forces to counter the restricted choices the other player has left. I am saying that the game could use a little suprise and innovation in force compositions. And I am saying that regardless of how much arty the other guy buys there is NO reason for a game to become "bogged down" IF proper tactics are used. Shooting blind arty is at 1/4 strenght , it will quickly run out of ammo doing little damage if off board and it will quickly give itself away if onboard , or counterbattery will get it offboard or on board.
Artifical limits are a crutch that put players in a rut, they take away half of the element of tactical suprise and prevent players from fearing/ exploiting the whole map board. Arty doesn't make for WW1 type situations 5000 points on a 60 hex front ( or worse a 40 hex front) makes for WW1 type situation , folks buy the same basic core game after game , and play the same basic tactic game after game, and IMHO most PBEM is a AI rehash. I am advocating total freedom within the point limit , not to get greater amounts of arty but to force some fresh tactics , some different core forces. The other guy being able to buy anything , will force you to cover more bases , it will make one player different from another and if they are a regular opponent , it will force them to work with different cores for fear they will set a pattern you can exploit. Think People Think
Artifical limits are a crutch that put players in a rut, they take away half of the element of tactical suprise and prevent players from fearing/ exploiting the whole map board. Arty doesn't make for WW1 type situations 5000 points on a 60 hex front ( or worse a 40 hex front) makes for WW1 type situation , folks buy the same basic core game after game , and play the same basic tactic game after game, and IMHO most PBEM is a AI rehash. I am advocating total freedom within the point limit , not to get greater amounts of arty but to force some fresh tactics , some different core forces. The other guy being able to buy anything , will force you to cover more bases , it will make one player different from another and if they are a regular opponent , it will force them to work with different cores for fear they will set a pattern you can exploit. Think People Think
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Viking yeah I think we did , but I quit favoring them maybe my last 10-15 games and quit asking the other guy to use them my last 5 or 10 games while agreeing to abide by whatever dumb limits the other guy wanted .. it was getting to repetitive.
I am thinking of getting back into a few games after 8.0 comes out , but not with limits agree on points and use the no mines in advance except engineers ,a few points of mines in delay, mines if ya want on defense and thats it .. if folks wanna play fine if they don't fine. Big maps low points say max maps and 3000-5000 points maybe less weather visibilty and air at defaults everything on except CC and rareity.. i don't know yet , no commitment , but I think I am seeing a window in my schedual. Gawd I hope so .. I may just Veg out ..
I am thinking of getting back into a few games after 8.0 comes out , but not with limits agree on points and use the no mines in advance except engineers ,a few points of mines in delay, mines if ya want on defense and thats it .. if folks wanna play fine if they don't fine. Big maps low points say max maps and 3000-5000 points maybe less weather visibilty and air at defaults everything on except CC and rareity.. i don't know yet , no commitment , but I think I am seeing a window in my schedual. Gawd I hope so .. I may just Veg out ..
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Originally posted by AmmoSgt
...it will force them to work with different cores for fear they will set a pattern you can exploit. Think People Think
My easy solution to your problem is to have rarity ON. That way you and your opponent can't keep getting the same core force game after game. The rarity ON feature is quirky so it really makes for different buying situations each time.
I don't care what people buy, but I would like to be told if we are going to play "historical" or "anything goes." This is important because if there is a disconnect there, then one player is not going to be happy. I'm perfectly fine playing either way, but I want to know in advance. I don't think that is unreasonable.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Historical ???????? how is a 10% arty limit Historical? how is a defense depth of a Max 50 hexes Historical? how is having tanks in every battle Historical ? How is equal points Historical ? How is any preset Defender/ Attacker always the same Ratio Historical ?? How is dumbed down US Arty Historical ? How is equal Logistics and everybody starts with full ammo loads or the exact same ammo handicaps Historical ??? How is German Tigers and King Tigers in every gosh darn Battle as soon as they are available Historical ? Just the farquing topic of this thread rules out any Discussion of Historical Forces as far as the Germans go ..
Maybe I don't get what Historical means ???, Historical would mean playing with The Germans early in the war in 80 % of thier battles and the Allies , Once the US starts Lendlease having overwhleming Artillery and Air Support in 90 % of thier battles. Historical would mean Allied Scouts and Armor making contact and backing off while Artillery beats the heck out what they contacted.
As far as Rairity Geezze Louise , if it meant anything Historically every German tank, even the most Common ones, would have to be a 3 If Shermans and T-34's were a 1 , And Heavy German Tanks would have to be a 4 or a 5.
Historically The US , Brits and Russians would have 10 Arty Tubes for every 1 the Germans had. Historically the Germans had about 150 foot infantry maybe 20 Mech Infantry and what a dozen or so Armored Divisions, and remember the German Massed thier Armor not spent it in penny packets ? So Historically 4 battles out of 5 the Germans would have foot infantry and horse drawn support ?
What do you mean by Historical ?? please explain Historical to me ? Historical would mean for all intents and Purposes NO German Armor on the Western front after Jan 45 ? No Panthers and only 11 Tigers total on the Italian Front until after Mid 44, No King Tigers until about Sept 44 ? Historical would mean Most German Units would have next to no ammunition in any Staligrad battle the last two months and no artillery and almost all tanks would have to be stationary the last couple of months of the battle ?
Historical ROFLMAO yeah right , Please explain Historical to me .
Historical You Mean Every Bn of US Infantry would have at least a company of Armor AND a Company of TD's AND a Bn of Arty , and would be up against half thier number of foot infantry 4 battles outta 5 ? that kind of Historical ?
Or Do You mean Equal Points Historical with German Armor , usually heavy Armor with Arty Support in every battle Historical, With the Historical 16,000 German 251's ( inculding all 22 major variants ) made, being always present to run the infantry around while the US is in Trucks because only 60,000 US Halftracks and 400,000 US Jeeps were available . Or Historical as in US Mortars not having WP and having larger warheads on their artillery but all artillery of the same caliber having the same effect in the game and the 80/81/82 mm Mortars all have the same range because it is only fair and balanced Historical? that kinda Historical Good Gawd ..
Historical forces as opposed to anything goes .... explain this to me , this I gotta hear..
Rairity that has German Armor available in every battle yeah rairity really works , explain this to me really I wanna hear how this works ?
Maybe I don't get what Historical means ???, Historical would mean playing with The Germans early in the war in 80 % of thier battles and the Allies , Once the US starts Lendlease having overwhleming Artillery and Air Support in 90 % of thier battles. Historical would mean Allied Scouts and Armor making contact and backing off while Artillery beats the heck out what they contacted.
As far as Rairity Geezze Louise , if it meant anything Historically every German tank, even the most Common ones, would have to be a 3 If Shermans and T-34's were a 1 , And Heavy German Tanks would have to be a 4 or a 5.
Historically The US , Brits and Russians would have 10 Arty Tubes for every 1 the Germans had. Historically the Germans had about 150 foot infantry maybe 20 Mech Infantry and what a dozen or so Armored Divisions, and remember the German Massed thier Armor not spent it in penny packets ? So Historically 4 battles out of 5 the Germans would have foot infantry and horse drawn support ?
What do you mean by Historical ?? please explain Historical to me ? Historical would mean for all intents and Purposes NO German Armor on the Western front after Jan 45 ? No Panthers and only 11 Tigers total on the Italian Front until after Mid 44, No King Tigers until about Sept 44 ? Historical would mean Most German Units would have next to no ammunition in any Staligrad battle the last two months and no artillery and almost all tanks would have to be stationary the last couple of months of the battle ?
Historical ROFLMAO yeah right , Please explain Historical to me .
Historical You Mean Every Bn of US Infantry would have at least a company of Armor AND a Company of TD's AND a Bn of Arty , and would be up against half thier number of foot infantry 4 battles outta 5 ? that kind of Historical ?
Or Do You mean Equal Points Historical with German Armor , usually heavy Armor with Arty Support in every battle Historical, With the Historical 16,000 German 251's ( inculding all 22 major variants ) made, being always present to run the infantry around while the US is in Trucks because only 60,000 US Halftracks and 400,000 US Jeeps were available . Or Historical as in US Mortars not having WP and having larger warheads on their artillery but all artillery of the same caliber having the same effect in the game and the 80/81/82 mm Mortars all have the same range because it is only fair and balanced Historical? that kinda Historical Good Gawd ..
Historical forces as opposed to anything goes .... explain this to me , this I gotta hear..
Rairity that has German Armor available in every battle yeah rairity really works , explain this to me really I wanna hear how this works ?
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
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Belisarius
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Whoups, no arty thread without some 'missioning' of our own artillerist. (I meant that as a compliment, btw...)
Whoever said we imposed the 10% limit for historical reasons, it's SO NOT TRUE. We have the 10% limit because if not the PBEM games run a risk of getting unplayable due to both sides shelling the other into oblivion with 150+mm arty. :rolleyes: I've been on the receiveing end of this, and believe me it's just as funny as it sounds.
THAT is why we limit artillery. We want to fight with ground troops, not just see them hug ground for 25 turns.
(I meant that as a compliment, btw...)Whoever said we imposed the 10% limit for historical reasons, it's SO NOT TRUE. We have the 10% limit because if not the PBEM games run a risk of getting unplayable due to both sides shelling the other into oblivion with 150+mm arty. :rolleyes: I've been on the receiveing end of this, and believe me it's just as funny as it sounds.
THAT is why we limit artillery. We want to fight with ground troops, not just see them hug ground for 25 turns.
Got StuG?
LOL I'll Take that as a complement ..
Come on on a 60 x 100 map you got 6000 hexes a battery effects what maybe 8 or 12 hexes .. use tactics use deception. Arty even massive Arty doesn't need to be a game stopper .. the only reason it is right now ( even as dumbed down as some Arty is , is because nobody has had to figure out a way to overcome it or negate it because everybody has been playing against limited Arty . Besides I think most folks would NOT buy exessive amounts of Arty once they found out how to avoid it and defeat it .. it ain't that hard .. uh I have been studying this situation
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The Object on not having limits is so the other guy can't plan on you having exactly 10% or whatever arty , no limts on Air so he can't plan to buy or not buy AA , ( although with air , you can pretty much guess if it is going to be a factor based on nation and weather and time of day ) .. I mean if ya set up on the start line on the roads and the other guy has 25% arty yeah ok yer screwed , but what if the other guy doesn't buy ANY arty and has an extra couple of platoons of tanks or an extra Company of Infanty instead or 3 platoons of mobile AAA .. thats the whole point. OK yeah even with 10% arty you could , but who does ? nobody 10% arty is not just a limit anymore .. it is a mental straight jacket and a requirement almost. Let Folks buy whatever the heck they want .. the most balanced force will still have the advantage , and even if somebody goes with 30% Arty they are just gonna mess themselves up maybe .. depends of course you could be playing somebody who thinks going first is an actual advantage and dumb stuff like that .. it is about tactics NOT percentages of stuff ... Geeze Louise at least try a game or two and at least try and work out some tactics so it is not such a game stopper .. Try and slove the problem tactically during the game not negotiate it away before the shooting even starts .
Heck maybe the other guy might even buy "Historical" forces ROFLMAO
Come on on a 60 x 100 map you got 6000 hexes a battery effects what maybe 8 or 12 hexes .. use tactics use deception. Arty even massive Arty doesn't need to be a game stopper .. the only reason it is right now ( even as dumbed down as some Arty is , is because nobody has had to figure out a way to overcome it or negate it because everybody has been playing against limited Arty . Besides I think most folks would NOT buy exessive amounts of Arty once they found out how to avoid it and defeat it .. it ain't that hard .. uh I have been studying this situation
. The Object on not having limits is so the other guy can't plan on you having exactly 10% or whatever arty , no limts on Air so he can't plan to buy or not buy AA , ( although with air , you can pretty much guess if it is going to be a factor based on nation and weather and time of day ) .. I mean if ya set up on the start line on the roads and the other guy has 25% arty yeah ok yer screwed , but what if the other guy doesn't buy ANY arty and has an extra couple of platoons of tanks or an extra Company of Infanty instead or 3 platoons of mobile AAA .. thats the whole point. OK yeah even with 10% arty you could , but who does ? nobody 10% arty is not just a limit anymore .. it is a mental straight jacket and a requirement almost. Let Folks buy whatever the heck they want .. the most balanced force will still have the advantage , and even if somebody goes with 30% Arty they are just gonna mess themselves up maybe .. depends of course you could be playing somebody who thinks going first is an actual advantage and dumb stuff like that .. it is about tactics NOT percentages of stuff ... Geeze Louise at least try a game or two and at least try and work out some tactics so it is not such a game stopper .. Try and slove the problem tactically during the game not negotiate it away before the shooting even starts .
Heck maybe the other guy might even buy "Historical" forces ROFLMAO
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
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Belisarius
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I understand you point.
However, there's this small thing called "suppression". :rolleyes: With lots of arty, all you have to do is to plot your opening bombardement with a 3-4 hex separation all over your opponent's assembly area. Move in and chop up the stunned remnants. IMHO, it's gamey since artillery so easily allows for locking up large units, and there really is no way to tactically beat that except with lots of luck (enemy arty out of contact). Deception never works well in SP:WAW, movement is too restricted and you can't "masquerade" a unit since once spotted they're always identified correctly.
Maybe with C&C ON it's another story since then you'll have the command problem anyway, but as you know most players won't agree to play that way.
What I mean is, why have an arty-o-rama on the battlefield when, IMO, the game is so limited in other aspects? I'm thrilled with what Combat Leader will bring and its' "continous" area effects.
However, there's this small thing called "suppression". :rolleyes: With lots of arty, all you have to do is to plot your opening bombardement with a 3-4 hex separation all over your opponent's assembly area. Move in and chop up the stunned remnants. IMHO, it's gamey since artillery so easily allows for locking up large units, and there really is no way to tactically beat that except with lots of luck (enemy arty out of contact). Deception never works well in SP:WAW, movement is too restricted and you can't "masquerade" a unit since once spotted they're always identified correctly.
Maybe with C&C ON it's another story since then you'll have the command problem anyway, but as you know most players won't agree to play that way.
What I mean is, why have an arty-o-rama on the battlefield when, IMO, the game is so limited in other aspects? I'm thrilled with what Combat Leader will bring and its' "continous" area effects.
Got StuG?
Bah Humbug If your biggest complaint is Arty locking large units with suppression and turning the game into WW1 then go to a 100 x 200 map with 5000 points .. that gets you a good solid Bn of maneuver Units .. about a 5 mile or 8 Km front which for a advance to combat is still on the smallish side but not that bad . plenty of room for maneuver plenty of room to hide , deception is a heck of a lot more than misidentifing a unit , How about Misidentifing a complete Company , and don't tell you can't do this in a couple of ways .. misidentfying an whole route of advance .
I biggest thing that turns this game into a toe to toe WW1 trench warfare sluging match instead of a WW2 style war of Maneuver is too many points on too small of a battle field.
For 5000 Points on a delay maybe a 120 x 100 and on defense maybe a 80 x 100.
If your units line up two deep the whole lenght on the map before you start your depoly . you KNOW the map is too small .
Go ahead get 50% of 5000 points , about 12 150/155 Batteries , on a 100x200 map and find me before I am doing you damage I'll take my 10% +/- Arty Offboard and half your offboard knocked out before you can pin a meaningful amount of my maneuver , and you are going to be severaly hurting on the map giving me a two to one advantage in manuver by doing so.
So don't tell me Arty can't be defeated by Maneuver .
What screws up more games is a too small map with too many points .. if you want a war of maneuver then you gotta have the space to use something resembling tactics ... lining folks up sholder to sholder and making them arty bait is not the fault of how much arty somebody has .. it is just lousy Tactics and a total lack of understanding of force/ frontage ratios .. thats NOT the Games Fault .. thats the players fault in most cases , in the rest the cases it is the fault of folks who set up these totally artifical limits and teach the newbies that there is some BS Reason for them to exist. I'll Bet 80% of the parrots that are yapping the 10% arty rule have never been in a high arty game , and are totally repeating the BS reasons they have heard because nobody has adjusted a map size since SPWAW was a 100 x80 max map
I biggest thing that turns this game into a toe to toe WW1 trench warfare sluging match instead of a WW2 style war of Maneuver is too many points on too small of a battle field.
For 5000 Points on a delay maybe a 120 x 100 and on defense maybe a 80 x 100.
If your units line up two deep the whole lenght on the map before you start your depoly . you KNOW the map is too small .
Go ahead get 50% of 5000 points , about 12 150/155 Batteries , on a 100x200 map and find me before I am doing you damage I'll take my 10% +/- Arty Offboard and half your offboard knocked out before you can pin a meaningful amount of my maneuver , and you are going to be severaly hurting on the map giving me a two to one advantage in manuver by doing so.
So don't tell me Arty can't be defeated by Maneuver .
What screws up more games is a too small map with too many points .. if you want a war of maneuver then you gotta have the space to use something resembling tactics ... lining folks up sholder to sholder and making them arty bait is not the fault of how much arty somebody has .. it is just lousy Tactics and a total lack of understanding of force/ frontage ratios .. thats NOT the Games Fault .. thats the players fault in most cases , in the rest the cases it is the fault of folks who set up these totally artifical limits and teach the newbies that there is some BS Reason for them to exist. I'll Bet 80% of the parrots that are yapping the 10% arty rule have never been in a high arty game , and are totally repeating the BS reasons they have heard because nobody has adjusted a map size since SPWAW was a 100 x80 max map
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Oh and when it comes to C&C concider that the whole C&C thing came from SP3 which had 250 meter hexes yet the C&C hex distance range stayed the same despite the 50 meter hexes. Couple that with a TOTALLY misassigned radio thing . I mean come on foot infantry with radios , even dismounted infantry with radios , not unless they are US .. everybody else had vehicle mounted , even the British, and I do mean Motor Vehicle , not horse carts and not run of the mill Opel Blitzes. Runners yes signal flags yes flares yes , motorcycle couriers yes . Heck in some WW2 Armies just having two wrist watches in the same unit to sycronize would be a big deal. land Lines yes in static positions. Dry cell batteries and walkie talkies US Only. sorry Franz . C&C for all of it's good intentions has not translated well to SPWAW and the maniditory upgrade of the Germans to two radios in every mess kit so they can be like the Americans is totally "fair and balanced BS Historical" .
Get the Force/ frontage right and most of the "too much arty" BS goes away.
By Doctrine the Halftracks are 100-150 meters / yards behind the dismounted infantry in direct support with the MG's thats the C&C limit in SPWAW . You know why the 251/9's and 251/10's have only room for 5 ? think it is the gun ? Nope Radio was so dang big took up more room than the gun in the troop area .. gun was overhead for the most part .
Get the Force/ frontage right and most of the "too much arty" BS goes away.
By Doctrine the Halftracks are 100-150 meters / yards behind the dismounted infantry in direct support with the MG's thats the C&C limit in SPWAW . You know why the 251/9's and 251/10's have only room for 5 ? think it is the gun ? Nope Radio was so dang big took up more room than the gun in the troop area .. gun was overhead for the most part .
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
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Belisarius
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Originally posted by AmmoSgt
Get the Force/ frontage right and most of the "too much arty" BS goes away.
There's the essence of it all.
With much different force/frontage ratios than is the "norm" today, I won't have a problem with 'unlimited' artillery. Then excessive artillery would indeed hamper your ability to locate/fight the enemy, all that units vs. artillery priorities.
I agree with you mostly, if that isn't clear already. But since we usually play with huge (5-8000p) armies in cramped areas, too much artillery will ruin the gameplay. I'm not saying this is ideal, I'd rather fight with less on more surface, but this is the norm and this is why we have experimented to find that a 10%-15% limit doesn't upset the game too much yet allows for effective fire support. This isn't perfect either, but most is happy with it at the moment. And again you're right in that it is sort of a 'straightjacket' for developing your tactical skills but hey, the limitation isn't carved in rock, I'd be happy to try something different.
Got StuG?
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Frank W.
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perhaps we can find a cosenus about that arty thing ? i´m starting 2 games next time with 2 guys from the board, so it would be helpful to have limits that everybody agrees on.
questions are:
a)what kind of arty count into the limit ? 81mm and above or ALL indirect fire ?
b)what about FO + ammo count that in or not ??
c) how much ammo trucks etc. should be allowed? let´s say 1 truck or dump for 4 pieces or so ? or is it not important ? i mean if a player decides to buy much ammo it´s his personal thing, or ? they are quite expensive, so that "money" would then not available to buy combat troops
d) also accepted point rates would be cool to standardize a little. let´s say in meetings the usual rules apply.. while in assault scens the attacker should have more points + arty... 2:1 or so perhaps ?
e) what about "special rare weapons" like sturmtiger,jagdtiger,flametanks etc... big diameter rocket weapons ( katjushas, nebelwerfer ) were also not that common...
or just throw it all over and do what ammo sgt. says: buy what you want
questions are:
a)what kind of arty count into the limit ? 81mm and above or ALL indirect fire ?
b)what about FO + ammo count that in or not ??
c) how much ammo trucks etc. should be allowed? let´s say 1 truck or dump for 4 pieces or so ? or is it not important ? i mean if a player decides to buy much ammo it´s his personal thing, or ? they are quite expensive, so that "money" would then not available to buy combat troops
d) also accepted point rates would be cool to standardize a little. let´s say in meetings the usual rules apply.. while in assault scens the attacker should have more points + arty... 2:1 or so perhaps ?
e) what about "special rare weapons" like sturmtiger,jagdtiger,flametanks etc... big diameter rocket weapons ( katjushas, nebelwerfer ) were also not that common...
or just throw it all over and do what ammo sgt. says: buy what you want