1.11.03, 1941 Campaign, SU 213th Motorized

[brucemo]

This unit is at 68,83 (Polonnoe) and I think makes it impossible to pocket 3 tank divisions and 2 rifle divisions that are slightly west of there, in the aggressive "lock down" Lvov pocket strategy.

I'm seeing the unit in 1.11.03, and I'm seeing it in MarauderPL's 37-part YouTube series, which is from 2016, but it does not appear to be present in some AAR's (HLYA's "extermination" AAR, which uses 1.11.01, sillyflower's "SWAN_SONG" AAR from 2015), and I don't know what is going on.

I know that recon is fallible but it's missing in screen shots enough that I think that it's sometimes really not there.

Am I correct that it is sometimes gone, and if so, what dictates this unit's presence or absence?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: brucemo

This unit is at 68,83 (Polonnoe) and I think makes it impossible to pocket 3 tank divisions and 2 rifle divisions that are slightly west of there, in the aggressive "lock down" Lvov pocket strategy.

I'm seeing the unit in 1.11.03, and I'm seeing it in MarauderPL's 37-part YouTube series, which is from 2016, but it does not appear to be present in some AAR's (HLYA's "extermination" AAR, which uses 1.11.01, sillyflower's "SWAN_SONG" AAR from 2015), and I don't know what is going on.

I know that recon is fallible but it's missing in screen shots enough that I think that it's sometimes really not there.

Am I correct that it is sometimes gone, and if so, what dictates this unit's presence or absence?

Check your scenerio version to see if they match. Some setups are different on a few units.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: brucemo

This unit is at 68,83 (Polonnoe) and I think makes it impossible to pocket 3 tank divisions and 2 rifle divisions that are slightly west of there, in the aggressive "lock down" Lvov pocket strategy.

I'm seeing the unit in 1.11.03, and I'm seeing it in MarauderPL's 37-part YouTube series, which is from 2016, but it does not appear to be present in some AAR's (HLYA's "extermination" AAR, which uses 1.11.01, sillyflower's "SWAN_SONG" AAR from 2015), and I don't know what is going on.

I know that recon is fallible but it's missing in screen shots enough that I think that it's sometimes really not there.

Am I correct that it is sometimes gone, and if so, what dictates this unit's presence or absence?

Check your scenerio version to see if they match. Some setups are different on a few units.

Meaning was it Bitter End? Or Sudden Death? or regular.

[brucemo]

I tried Bitter End, Normal, and VC 260. I can't do Sudden Death because I don't have that content. I just verified that the unit is present in Better End, which your campaign was played with.

[Telemecus]

All the other games mentioned were pre-v1.11.03 - so my guess is it is one of the changes in v1.11.03?

[brucemo]

I thought it might be a recent change but if you look in MarauderPL's YouTube series, which he published in April 2016, the unit is there. So it was there two years before 1.11.03, and in 1.11.03, but not in an AAR using 1.11.01. I can't find any logic to its presence or absence.

[Telemecus]

just checked saves for v1.10.00 and v1.11.00 - and the unit is there. Do not have anything from v1.11.01 to check though. Can you link to the screenshots which made you think it was not there then so we can see and check them too?

[Telemecus]

is it this one with the place circled in red? - if so you will see a lot of other units with low detection levels in the clear (circled in black) indicating little or no recon. For experienced players playing Axis on turn 1 recon is not critical as they know all the relevant unit locations off by heart. It could also be that recon was done after this screenshot. My guess is it is there.

[morvael]

1.11.03 initial position

[brucemo]

I can't post links because I am new. That is in fact the unit and it is not visible in the two AAR's that I referred to.

It is possible to get there, displace the unit, and occupy its hex, but you have to use 11th Panzer and you can't attack anything else on the way, so position in the HLYA AAR appears optimal. You can't get GD Motorized to the position north of there with enough MP to displace the garrison, so I don't see how anything can be better here.

I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong about this. I realize that I am new and therefore dumb and ignorant but I've spent a lot of time trying to figure this out.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: brucemo

I can't post links because I am new. That is in fact the unit and it is not visible in the two AAR's that I referred to.

It is possible to get there, displace the unit, and occupy its hex, but you have to use 11th Panzer and you can't attack anything else on the way, so position in the HLYA AAR appears optimal. You can't get GD Motorized to the position north of there with enough MP to displace the garrison, so I don't see how anything can be better here.

I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong about this. I realize that I am new and therefore dumb and ignorant but I've spent a lot of time trying to figure this out.

That unit is still not visible because of Recon was not performed. It is there trust me. What did happen to the unit was a Panzer division later came and hasty attacked it then moved into the vacated hex. That motorized unit shattered. You have about a 50% chance, it seems on the first turn, to shatter motorized units. I hope this helps. That unit is there. By the way, I am not pocketing the 3 tank divisions and some infantry divisions. I just have an open pocket to capture them the next turn for sure. Feel free to ask questions I am more than happy to help with your moves on this if you like.

I actually have another opening with Germany that is even deadlier than this one now. I am very very reluctant to share it though.

[brucemo]

Okay, I'll accept that the unit was there.

What confused me is that you spoke about something having gone wrong here, and I assumed you'd gotten less out of this than you otherwise would have. But there is no way to move that last panzer even one hex further. I know it's not a real pocket. I just couldn't figure out what had gone wrong when this looks like a perfect outcome.

Perhaps you had to bring in an extra panzer unit.

Since you are reading this and are obviously very skilled, I would like to ask you about the difference between 14th and 11th Panzer.

If I run the 14th down there, I can't attack anything on the way. If I break it into regiments and attack the SEC at 60,85 with one of them, the morale of that brigade raises to 87. When I combine them next turn, morale is back down to 85 and for some reason the unit pays 3 MP to enter enemy clear territory.

This doesn't happen if I can attack something on the way, so I've been taking 11th Panzer to Romania. But in that case I can't occupy the the hex that the motorized unit that is the subject of this thread is on, because 14th is one MP short.

Is there a way to keep 14th Panzer from going bad next turn if you take it to Romania?

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I actually have another opening with Germany that is even deadlier than this one now. I am very very reluctant to share it though.

But sooner or later you'll have to because someone will be victim of it[:D]

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: brucemo

Okay, I'll accept that the unit was there.

What confused me is that you spoke about something having gone wrong here, and I assumed you'd gotten less out of this than you otherwise would have. But there is no way to move that last panzer even one hex further. I know it's not a real pocket. I just couldn't figure out what had gone wrong when this looks like a perfect outcome.

Perhaps you had to bring in an extra panzer unit.

Since you are reading this and are obviously very skilled, I would like to ask you about the difference between 14th and 11th Panzer.

If I run the 14th down there, I can't attack anything on the way. If I break it into regiments and attack the SEC at 60,85 with one of them, the morale of that brigade raises to 87. When I combine them next turn, morale is back down to 85 and for some reason the unit pays 3 MP to enter enemy clear territory.

This doesn't happen if I can attack something on the way, so I've been taking 11th Panzer to Romania. But in that case I can't occupy the the hex that the motorized unit that is the subject of this thread is on, because 14th is one MP short.

Is there a way to keep 14th Panzer from going bad next turn if you take it to Romania?

Para 1: Great

Para 2: Nothing went wrong, per se, with my attacks. If I had gotten less holds I could have done a few things different that could have net even more real estate. But WITE being such as it is almost any combat can have a hold unless you have extreme odds. As such I received a few holds which caused me to change avenues just a bit and force me to accept less than optimum.

Para 3: Na, things would have to be done differently & I won't get into that

Para 4: When you combine back together the regiments then the experience is a net result of all three averaged

Para 5: Are you breaking the PZ division down into Regiments in the last hex. Then with just one of the Regiments attack the Security unit? Then the other two units can move to the other hexes. That is how you do that one

Para 6: I don't understand this question.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: beender

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I actually have another opening with Germany that is even deadlier than this one now. I am very very reluctant to share it though.

But sooner or later you'll have to because someone will be victim of it[:D]

Who said I would play Germany again ;-P Plus I would only use it against an "extremely" great Russian player & even they would be very hard pressed even more so than my current opening in the south. I have actually been sitting on this because I know the devastation this overall strat would have on the game.

[brucemo]

Para 5: Are you breaking the PZ division down into Regiments in the last hex. Then with just one of the Regiments attack the Security unit? Then the other two units can move to the other hexes. That is how you do that one

Para 6: I don't understand this question.

The unit is at 61,95 with 4 MP. It has not attacked anything on the way there, because it is 14th Panzer and it takes that many MP to get there.

The unit is broken into regiments. One regiment attacks 94th NKDV at 60 95 (Novoselitsa).

The regiment with 3 MP stays where it is, another moves to 60,95, and the last one moves to 62,94.

At this point the one that attacked is at 87 morale and the other two are at 85.

End turn.

Combine the regiments. The division will have 85 morale. Try to move. It costs 3 MP to move across clear enemy territory. This is what I mean when I refer to "going bad".

If you take the 11th there and attack as a division, all three bits will have 87 morale after the above steps, and when you combine them on turn 2 you will have 87 morale. The division can move across clear enemy territory with 2 MP.

I'm assuming that the lower morale is what is causing this because I don't know what else could be.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: brucemo

Para 5: Are you breaking the PZ division down into Regiments in the last hex. Then with just one of the Regiments attack the Security unit? Then the other two units can move to the other hexes. That is how you do that one

Para 6: I don't understand this question.

The unit is at 61,95 with 4 MP. It has not attacked anything on the way there, because it is 14th Panzer and it takes that many MP to get there.

The unit is broken into regiments. One regiment attacks 94th NKDV at 60 95 (Novoselitsa).

The regiment with 3 MP stays where it is, another moves to 60,95, and the last one moves to 62,94.

At this point the one that attacked is at 87 morale and the other two are at 85.

End turn.

Combine the regiments. The division will have 85 morale. Try to move. It costs 3 MP to move across clear enemy territory. This is what I mean when I refer to "going bad".

If you take the 11th there and attack as a division, all three bits will have 87 morale after the above steps, and when you combine them on turn 2 you will have 87 morale. The division can move across clear enemy territory with 2 MP.

I'm assuming that the lower morale is what is causing this because I don't know what else could be.

That is correct. The lower morale is the factor of the hex costing more MP's

[brucemo]

Right. And my question to is, is that just something you deal with when you send 14th Panzer to the Romanian border or do you have some means of avoiding that?

[thedoctorking]

Another illustration of why there needs to be some sort of semi-free deployment in this game. When experienced players know where every Soviet division is, and can debate opening moves with chess-like precision, it takes something away from the game imho.

[brucemo]

Against humans that would make some sense, or at least some randomness might be good, beyond leadership rolls. Against the computer with FOW turned off it would probably lead to restarts ala Civilization.

What I'm doing here is trying to figure out how to play well by trying to replicate moves of someone who plays well. It's a valid learning technique.

Furthermore, a static start allows me to ask questions about known positions. There is an 85 morale panzer division, and if you perform a certain series of steps it's worth less on the following turn. Anyone can reproduce those steps, and players who play this opening over and over must have some idea what I'm talking about. I'm trying to understand that because it's a situation that comes up more generally, and I would like to understand it and avoid it.