8MP Team Game - The Axis team

[Telemecus]

Turn 41 Rules and Interpretation

This was another turn in which the Axis team had to debate extensively the rules of the game, and what we could do within them.

The house rules can be found in the sign up thread tm.asp?m=4245675

In particular we have debated two continuously

House Rules

4. No unit may deliberately move forward into isolated status (defined as being more than 99 MPs from a railhead). Units that are isolated due to being surrounded may only move towards supply. The only exception to this rule is air-landed units which may move in any way.

5. The game is supposed to be fun and historically plausible, they players agree to play accordingly and not try to exploit the game engine or do ”gamey” stuff.

Rule 4 in particular caused us many problems over Operation Dumbo Drop and the end of the clear turns before the mud period. Did this apply to units that were suddenly isolated because of mud? Did this mean we could not reseal a broken pocket if they were suddenly isolated? Could units be trapped by just the one side towards supply even though an escape route round an obstacle might exist and so on. The debates went on endlessly. In the end we did lose units and cancel a major operation in 1941 because of what we thought the house rules meant.

This turn rule 5 became the main point of debate. If I knew then what I know now I would have asked that the rule be changed to specific actions rather than a subjective assesment. I consider myself to be a historical player, and get surprised when others say I am not. Similarly I see certain tactics as obviously ahistorical being treated as orthodox on these forums. The question was what exactly is historical and what is "gamey" stuff? And is there any such thing as "historical" other than just meaning "what I did not think of myself" or "what I feel like it should be?"

We did use that principle of legal interpretation often used in common law systems and some others that a law is meant to stop something and not meant to be vacuous. And that as everyone had different views we should look to what the author of the rule meant by historical or gamey. As far as we can see the rules author, Hortlund, only gave one example of what he saw as being ahistorical or "gamey" here tm.asp?m=4210686&mpage=5 - see post 141

In particular they refer to the use of dummy stacked units to prevent a unit reteating the wrong way in this picture



Without expressing any views on whether this is historical or not (and I have many doubts on whether it is a meaningful term at all as I usually see it posted) we have to accept the author of the rule saw it as not being so. So if anything is prohibited by this rule, this must be.

It follows from that fact that if anything is included in the rule this must be, and that the rule should not be interpreted as vacuous, that the house rules prohibit this action in this game.

In this turn we faced the exact analogue in that we did not want units that just crossed the river Don being forced to retreat back the wrong way. After debating the rule in the end we did not place other units to prevent this happening.

[Telemecus]

Turn 41 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 41.

[Telemecus]

Turn 38 to 41: OPERATION NATIONAL GARDEN: The story so far ...

Before the start of snow we had discussed as a team whether we should pool our resources on one main target. Here are some of the options we considered



While still taking forward operations in the centre East from Tula, at Lake Ilmen and in the Crimea, the Bridgehead over the Don before it unfroze was the one we chose to make our main effort on. Not only would it save us many turns trying to cross this formidable barrier later when the river was unfrozen, but it would break important Soviet rail lines, cross what we thought was their main line of resistance being dug in and could potentially trap more soviet industry in Voronezh. (The remaining industry in Voronezh however was evacuated shortly before the operation began.)



The original plan called for an attack slightly oblique to the frontlines to gain a bridgehead over the Don just near Svoboda. This was changed to a bridgehead further south that was perpendicular to the front. This took advantage of the lighter opposition to gaining a foothold there. But it also meant that any chance to get relief from another direction was now more difficult or impossible, let alone threatening to encircle any Soviet units left to the north of the thrust. Any relief forces could only arrive by the same corridor as the original thrust - and was itself being threatened from both sides.

Also starting the operation in a blizzard rather than snow turn meant much of the fuel built up for the operation was used up in one turn. An advance over more than one turn in the snow might have met overwhelming opposition in its final phase. But as it turned out getting the bridgehead immediately left us with a rescue operation for the bridgehead instead.

This turn by the normal weather patterns will be the last with snow. Future turns will be mud and with that the river Don will unfreeze - and even become more impassable for a while due to free floating blocks of solid ice. As such we have failed in our objective to gain a bridghead over the Don before it unfroze. For Operation National Garden it was
a bridgehead too far..........

[Telemecus]

[center][/center]

[Telemecus]

Turn 42: Team

beender from this turn is our centre commander.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 41 Rules and Interpretation

This was another turn in which the Axis team had to debate extensively the rules of the game, and what we could do within them.

The house rules can be found in the sign up thread tm.asp?m=4245675

In particular we have debated two continuously

House Rules

4. No unit may deliberately move forward into isolated status (defined as being more than 99 MPs from a railhead). Units that are isolated due to being surrounded may only move towards supply. The only exception to this rule is air-landed units which may move in any way.

5. The game is supposed to be fun and historically plausible, they players agree to play accordingly and not try to exploit the game engine or do ”gamey” stuff.

Rule 4 in particular caused us many problems over Operation Dumbo Drop and the end of the clear turns before the mud period. Did this apply to units that were suddenly isolated because of mud? Did this mean we could not reseal a broken pocket if they were suddenly isolated? Could units be trapped by just the one side towards supply even though an escape route round an obstacle might exist and so on. The debates went on endlessly. In the end we did lose units and cancel a major operation in 1941 because of what we thought the house rules meant.

This turn rule 5 became the main point of debate. If I knew then what I know now I would have asked that the rule be changed to specific actions rather than a subjective assesment. I consider myself to be a historical player, and get surprised when others say I am not. Similarly I see certain tactics as obviously ahistorical being treated as orthodox on these forums. The question was what exactly is historical and what is "gamey" stuff? And is there any such thing as "historical" other than just meaning "what I did not think of myself" or "what I feel like it should be?"

We did use that principle of legal interpretation often used in common law systems and some others that a law is meant to stop something and not meant to be vacuous. And that as everyone had different views we should look to what the author of the rule meant by historical or gamey. As far as we can see the rules author, Hortlund, only gave one example of what he saw as being ahistorical or "gamey" here tm.asp?m=4210686&mpage=5 - see post 141

In particular they refer to the use of dummy stacked units to prevent a unit reteating the wrong way in this picture



Without expressing any views on whether this is historical or not (and I have many doubts on whether it is a meaningful term at all as I usually see it posted) we have to accept the author of the rule saw it as being so. So if anything is prohibited by this rule, this must be.

It follows from that fact that if anything is included in the rule this must be, and that the rule should not be interpreted as vacuous, that the house rules prohibit this action in this game.

In this turn we faced the exact analogue in that we did not want units that just crossed the river Don being forced to retreat back the wrong way. After debating the rule in the end we did not place other units to prevent this happening.

A great deal of this stems from the gaming system itself not being able to adhere to certain perspectives that would not happen historical. So player do the best they can to overcome these situations. But interpretation is in the eyes of the beholder. Ask one person you will get an answer different of the next. Good luck

[timmyab]

Turn 42 Army group North

Very heavy rains combined with the thaw means mud. This would normally close down operations, but the Soviets have weakened their front line to such an extent that 1:1 attacks are possible in places and these produce good results. Especially welcome is the expansion of the Msta bridgehead.

[beender]

Turn 42 Army Group Centre

Taking over command of AGC from this turn now seems such a long time ago, indeed several campaigns were fought since then. During mud season all offensive operations had to wait, at least major ones. Axis troops launched several attacks here and there, in order to gain a little bit of ground here and there, which would in turn give better terrain/rail access/more threatening starting position for attack. But in total none of these had strategical significance, so were their results. Commander was amazed by how little time it took to carry out his duties, in comparison to that during the summer of 41.

Some casualties number did look good.

[Telemecus]

Can't help but notice the different approaches my esteemed colleagues take to mud warfare. [:D]

[thedude357]

Turn 42 Army Group South

This turn saw the end of Operation National Garden. No units were lost to surrender, although the final Soviet counterattack made them retreat with high losses. The battered units will be sent to the rear and refitted and ready for summer. Revenge will be on their minds.

In the far South, all that is left in the Crimea is Sevastopol. An extra corps that will be transferred to 11th Army gets ready for the oncoming attack. Once the weather clears, the attack will be swift and brutal. Massive amounts of artillery, pioneers, siege guns, and stukas are beginning to stage around Sevastopol to crack the level 5 forts.

[Telemecus]

Turn 42 08-April-1942 Air



With mud the Soviet air forces have largely left the map except for some airbases opposite the battles which were raging for a Don Bridghead and three bases near Kazan. Curiously our reconnaisance finds their fighters and fighter bombers at the Don are not providing any interceptor cover, so our bombers bomb them in daylight unescorted and unintercepted. Previously airbases had been placed in swamp hexes so that they would not fly interceptions. Now they will not fly interceptions from airbases not in swamps again! And while there is some fighter cover of Gorky, it is noticeably weak.

With next to no air combat at all this turn the air losses we ordinarily get from flak every turn are now easy to discern. This is our first turn since we upgraded to v1.11.02 and there is a noticeable uptick in the effectiveness of flak. But the losses we are getting owe more to the large number of targets we are bombing so we now expect to lose up to 50 level bombers a turn from bombing even if there are no fighters to oppose us.



Our level bomber force at the moment is almost exclusively Heinkels.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 42 08-April-1942 Air



With mud the Soviet air forces have largely left the map except for some airbases opposite the battles which were raging for a Don Bridghead and three bases near Kazan. Curiously our reconnaisance finds their fighters and fighter bombers at the Don are not providing any interceptor cover, so our bombers bomb them in daylight unescorted and unintercepted. Previously airbases had been placed in swamp hexes so that they would not fly interceptions. Now they will not fly interceptions from airbases not in swamps again! And while there is some fighter cover of Gorky, it is noticeably weak.

This was a direct result of the inadequate explanation in the forum for the patch on how group ranges should be set. The air units in question were set to '5' thinking that was the radius in hexes. Who knew with that setting the planes would not fly? [&:] Once I finally figured out with the help of a subsequent post by HLYA that the hex range was on a scale of 40=1, it was no longer an issue.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 41 01-April-1942 Air

Soviets continue to bomb our storks and to ground bomb - but also bomb our transports this turn. As already mentioned during our go they succeed in launching one ground interdiction which meets heavy flak and loses all bar one of their bombers.



The Luftwaffe moves south this turn to join its southern allies and also to cover and support the 1st Panzer army. But as a result the bombing of industry in Gorky takes a rest this turn.



...

Meanwhile the Finns continue to bomb the non-flying biplanes of the north. There are now some Sturmoviks being added to the mix too.

Speaking of flak, here's a tidbit...

How many AA guns contained in support units did the Soviet team start this game with?

47 regiments with approximately 1,000 guns
46 battalions with approximately 553 guns


But, if you start the bitter end scenario right now, care to guess how many AA guns the Soviets get in support units?











61 regiments with approximately 6,470 guns
170 battalions with approximately 3,095 guns


Think about it.

[Telemecus]

Turn 42 08-April-1942 Economic




This is our first turn since upgrading to v1.11.02 and getting any factory damage is no longer sufficient alone to prevent any expansion. Instead expansion probability is proportional to the lack of damage - so we now need to start building high damage levels at the Gorky T-70 factory before it has a chance to expand much. We also continue to get collateral damage on the T-60 factory we were not targeting.

[Telemecus]

Turn 42 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 42.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

This post is being reserved for a future upload of the team allocations of turn 42

Kind of like the old IBM manuals that said "This page intentionally left blank".

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
This post is being reserved for a future upload of the team allocations of turn 42

Kind of like the old IBM manuals that said "This page intentionally left blank".

Which is self-contradictory if you think about it! [:D]

[Telemecus]

Turn 43: Team

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Another week and another Russian poisoning attempt! The perfidy of the Soviet side knows no bounds as its assassination squad tampered with thedude357's Ragu sauce preventing them from doing their whole go in turn 34.

The poisoners have been tracked down by intelligence. The Führer has granted the request by our South Commander to personally lead the retaliation raid. While thedude357 is temporarily absent leverkuhn will be deputising for the South command from this turn.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Turn 43: Team

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Another week and another Russian poisoning attempt! The perfidy of the Soviet side knows no bounds as its assassination squad tampered with thedude357's Ragu sauce preventing them from doing their whole go in turn 34.

The poisoners have been tracked down by intelligence. The Führer has granted the request by our South Commander to personally lead the retaliation raid. While thedude357 is temporarily absent leverkuhn will be deputising for the South command from this turn.

Sounds like too much snapps and bratwurst.

[beender]

Turn 43 Army Group Centre


T43 on AGC and AGB, which is put under my command this turn, things are not much different from T42... Troops sit between the frontline and stare at each other. At two locations Axis launched attacks and succeeded, gaining...two hexes of ground. OKH worked hard to cheer up the morale of front commanders, but I cannot pretend that the effect is very big on me[:D] (through no fault of OKH Supreme Commander of course).

If there is anything worth noticing, that is German panzers are indeed superman because they are the only reliable force for offensive purpose during mud season. Without them the attacks would not even be considered.