The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

Yamato
Upgrade on 1/45 YES

Upgrading Yamato in Sapporo?

Well, no, and no, and no!!! [:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

[font="Times New Roman"]Dec 30, 1944[/font]

---

Wakkanai continues to struggle against the daily unloading TFs that spark the auto-bombardments, which are much more damaging to the defenders than anything else.

In one of my games the Allies would set up amphibious invasion forces of 3 BB, several cruisers and lots of DD, DE and one APD to offload supply to trigger the amphibious bombardment instead of the normal bombardment routine.

Alfred pointed out in several posts this was clearly a game exploit, the developers never fixed it and by sharing those posts with my Allied counterpart he stopped using them.

Nice air strikes, and you should be able to save Yamoto I think. The counter flooding should pump out very quickly once in pierside mode and then her speed will increase substantially. That is if you can maintain air superiority.[;)]

I get those, but also I get the ground troop auto-bombardments, which I can't turn off. That is the killer. If he unloads new troops, my arty fires and we get nailed by hundreds of Long Toms. The Japanese should be hiding in pill boxes and behind walls of concrete waiting for each assault, patiently not firing or revealing their positions, right?

Yeah, it's exploited, but what can you do? It's the game. I just wouldn't feel right because my opponent is forced to have his troops do something he can't control and doesn't want.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

It’s surprising she lived through 7 torpedoes. Rarely does any ship live past 2. What is truly estonishing is the 86 day estimated repair time. What level shipyard are you in? I’ve seen Allied BB’s after Pearl Harbor that have take 420 days to fix. I expect this game will go well past 86 days (I think you have a shot at 1946 if you get some breaks) so there is some chance she may live to fight again.

I love the optimism!! [&o]

The only chance I have is to keep whittling the airforce down and keep my fields away from Allied bombardments. The troops I can probably stall, even if Wakkanai falls. Good forts and terrain elsewhere on Hokkaido. About 6k AV now on the island and more arriving daily.

I'm surprised she made it past the subs out there, who were hunting and that 20 Fletchers in 2 ship TFs didn't come screaming in at night.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: FOW

Yes that 86 days repair time in pier-side mode will just clear the system damage, maybe a point or two of minor engine/flood.

I'm really surprised she made it to port [&o] but then they were aerial torps not sub launched?

Yes. One thing I just realised is that some of her AA will now also contribute at Sapporo, which isn't so bad.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Anyone wanna lay dollars to doughnuts that Sapporo's ports get body slammed from on high within the next 86 days? Because I think they will. If Yamato is still there, damage will continue to accrue.

Interestingly those bombs will be General Purpose though, not AP. So there could be a lot of bouncers. It'll still start fires and that will raise system damage and destroy devices though. currently the base has 800+ fighters, but I play with CAP vs LR CAP vs sweep daily, so of course if he gets lucky they could get a decent shot.

He still hasn't cleared all of the industry at Sapporo so I guess I'd like it a bit if he went ship hunting rather than taking out my life blood! [:D]

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Dec 31, 1944[/font]

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On the 31st I tried my luck sweeping Toyohara. Tough sledding, but got positive results anyway. Also did some work sweeping troops South of Wakkanai. I don't want to do too much of this when my forces aren't in hex. Better when I can save more of the pilots.

No attack at Wakkanai and otherwise quiet.

I did notice some Chinese that went right over the Himalayas to get into Chinese territory. I've got a brigade there, and I bet these units have little to no supply. I've reacted to support the road to Chengdu, and there isn't much these units can do up here isoalted.
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 31, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 42,370 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 21

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 13
P-38L Lightning x 13
P-51D Mustang x 18
F4U-1A Corsair x 10
F4U-1D Corsair x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K5-J George: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 4 destroyed
P-51D Mustang: 3 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 112th Cavalry Regiment, at 122,49 , near Wakkanai

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 38,910 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 26

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 39
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 15
F4U-1A Corsair x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 2 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 42,370 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 29

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 12
P-38L Lightning x 5
P-51D Mustang x 10
F4U-1A Corsair x 4
F4U-1D Corsair x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K5-J George: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 3 destroyed
P-51D Mustang: 2 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x N1K5-J George sweeping at 39370 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 112th Cavalry Regiment, at 122,49 , near Wakkanai

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 42,270 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84r Frank x 21

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 33
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 12
F4U-1A Corsair x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 71,44 (near Kunming)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4879 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 153

Defending force 13024 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 485

Assaulting units:
11th Ind.Infantry Brigade

Defending units:
80th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps
83rd Chinese Corps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

Alabama now showing on the sunk list, but I don't really believe that. Still, nice she's damaged enough to be considered! [:D]

[obvert]

We're now in 1945!!! [&o]

[obvert]

The first info screen of 45. The Japanese ahead by about 14k right now.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



In one of my games the Allies would set up amphibious invasion forces of 3 BB, several cruisers and lots of DD, DE and one APD to offload supply to trigger the amphibious bombardment instead of the normal bombardment routine.

Alfred pointed out in several posts this was clearly a game exploit, the developers never fixed it and by sharing those posts with my Allied counterpart he stopped using them.

Nice air strikes, and you should be able to save Yamoto I think. The counter flooding should pump out very quickly once in pierside mode and then her speed will increase substantially. That is if you can maintain air superiority.[;)]

Honestly I see this practice as a correction of a game loop, why can't a bombardment fleet concentrate its fire on shore batteries instead of airfield, pot or others, according to preset orders? So this technic is a way to bypass such limitation;

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

[font="Times New Roman"]Dec 30, 1944[/font]

---

Wakkanai continues to struggle against the daily unloading TFs that spark the auto-bombardments, which are much more damaging to the defenders than anything else.

In one of my games the Allies would set up amphibious invasion forces of 3 BB, several cruisers and lots of DD, DE and one APD to offload supply to trigger the amphibious bombardment instead of the normal bombardment routine.

Alfred pointed out in several posts this was clearly a game exploit, the developers never fixed it and by sharing those posts with my Allied counterpart he stopped using them.

Nice air strikes, and you should be able to save Yamoto I think. The counter flooding should pump out very quickly once in pierside mode and then her speed will increase substantially. That is if you can maintain air superiority.[;)]

Memory refresher time.

The two most relevant threads in that AAR were post #6799 and #6803 on page 227

tm.asp?m=3549450&mpage=227&key=

I haven't looked closely at what Canoerebel is doing (has Obvert posted full Combat Reports of the amphibious operations?) but the impression is that he isn't quite as far out in his tactical approach compared to Lowpe's opponent. That was a clear cut case of loophole exploitation. From a coding POV, not an easy loophole to close.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



In one of my games the Allies would set up amphibious invasion forces of 3 BB, several cruisers and lots of DD, DE and one APD to offload supply to trigger the amphibious bombardment instead of the normal bombardment routine.

Alfred pointed out in several posts this was clearly a game exploit, the developers never fixed it and by sharing those posts with my Allied counterpart he stopped using them.

Nice air strikes, and you should be able to save Yamoto I think. The counter flooding should pump out very quickly once in pierside mode and then her speed will increase substantially. That is if you can maintain air superiority.[;)]

Honestly I see this practice as a correction of a game loop, why can't a bombardment fleet concentrate its fire on shore batteries instead of airfield, pot or others, according to preset orders? So this technic is a way to bypass such limitation;

It wasn't a bombardment task force involved. Nor was it a game loop.

You should get your facts straight about how the game operates and what was specifically done in that instance before supporting what a charitable view would describe as a loophole exploitation, and a less charitable view would describe as cheating.

Alfred

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

[font="Times New Roman"]Dec 30, 1944[/font]

---

Wakkanai continues to struggle against the daily unloading TFs that spark the auto-bombardments, which are much more damaging to the defenders than anything else.

In one of my games the Allies would set up amphibious invasion forces of 3 BB, several cruisers and lots of DD, DE and one APD to offload supply to trigger the amphibious bombardment instead of the normal bombardment routine.

Alfred pointed out in several posts this was clearly a game exploit, the developers never fixed it and by sharing those posts with my Allied counterpart he stopped using them.

Nice air strikes, and you should be able to save Yamoto I think. The counter flooding should pump out very quickly once in pierside mode and then her speed will increase substantially. That is if you can maintain air superiority.[;)]

Memory refresher time.

The two most relevant threads in that AAR were post #6799 and #6803 on page 227

tm.asp?m=3549450&mpage=227&key=

I haven't looked closely at what Canoerebel is doing (has Obvert posted full Combat Reports of the amphibious operations?) but the impression is that he isn't quite as far out in his tactical approach compared to Lowpe's opponent. That was a clear cut case of loophole exploitation. From a coding POV, not an easy loophole to close.

Alfred

Dan is not doing what was happening in that game.

The difference is that many of Dan's landings are full units and suffer casualties accordingly, not little fragments. He does also land just supply, but not with only 1-2 ampibs in the TF. More often with smaller landing ships and their support.

Firstly, the game design is most definitely not intended to be exploited in this manner. On 30 November 2009, Don Bowen, who for AE coded the bombardment actions of amphibious task forces and the shore response, specifically stated that the bombardment action of an amphibious TF:

"is not long term naval support, one would have to bring up a bombardment TF for continued support after troops are all ashore."

Secondly, I'll show you the benefits which your opponent is gaining from not using proper bombardment TFs.


1. These faux invasions have only a single non combat ship in them. Specifically they have a single APD, every other ships is at least a DD sized combat warship. APDs can be inserted into a Bombardment TF, so quite unlike what JocMeister did, your opponent is deliberately using an Amphibious TF instead of a Bombardment TF because it benefits him and disadvantages the defender, not because it is the only way to involve APDs into the action.

Some of Dan's amphibs are landing only supply, but do it often, and the LCI(R) and LCI(G) involved do bombard troops.

Is it an exploit? I don't think so. It's a way of using the Allied tools creatively.

He also lands new troops, mostly small arty of armor units, regularly. The result of this is not an exploit, but it's obviously intended to trigger the ground troops auto-bombardment in the ground combat phase more than the naval bombardments of their TFs, although those are usually damaging as well, and usually utilise the Allied rocket and gun ships.

I'm not sure what to do but I'd like to not have troops bombard these new landings. I don't have any way to control that, and it is very costly.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

The first info screen of 45. The Japanese ahead by about 14k right now.

Same scenario, in my game with Tiemanj Japan had caused 28,400 Allied aircraft points lost. Considering the Japanese Air Force was destroyed from say March of 1944 on....

And perhaps more of interest, Japan fought at Nagoya from at least July 17 to the bitter end of Jan 1 1945.

Fighting on Honshu and Hokkaido offer Japan so many advantages,and Japan is in such great shape from an early disaster in Dec of 1941,I think you should never let the relentless pounding ever get to you!

If, when,the Allies take a base on Hokkaido,I bet you can either fight a really long battle on Hokkaido or bottle up the next invasion if it occurs on Honshu proper...but have the added tool of kamikazes.

I think you have played a masterful game and are in such an envious position. 99% of Japanese players don't get here in a scenario 1 game, and now this is your second that I know of.

Congratulation![&o]

[Lokasenna]

I mean, he's using the armed landing craft to protect the ships that would otherwise take coastal defense gunfire while landing supplies. They could just as easily be DDs or CLs or CAs.

[Chickenboy]

I fail to see the problem.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I fail to see the problem.

Ditto.

Maybe you don't want a bombardment TF to spend excessive ordanance on the port or AF, which has a much higher priority than the troops.

The arguement about shore battery fire not hitting the bombarding ships kind of makes sense, but shore battery fire against warships is pretty mild IRL also. A rough wikipedia search turns up only 8 USN ships lost to shore fire for the entire war...

[Lokasenna]

Sorry, I wasn't implying there was a problem. I was implying that the armed LCI are performing their designed function: shore bombardment/counter-battery during landing of stuff, just as DDs/CLs/CAs(/BBs) would do.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Sorry, I wasn't implying there was a problem. I was implying that the armed LCI are performing their designed function: shore bombardment/counter-battery during landing of stuff, just as DDs/CLs/CAs(/BBs) would do.

No offense taken. I was commenting that I didn't see a problem with the way this is modeled in the game, nor do I believe that CR (or other players using this technique) is gaming the system in this context.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Jan 1, 1945[/font]

---

Well, the Wakkanai campaign is nearing it's end. The auto-bombardments have wrecked havoc with the troops there over time, and today's was the worst. What looks like part of an HQ or an engineer unit unloads and after the auto bombardment throws the Japanese into chaos, the Allies shock. Forts go to 2 and it's all over.

My troops enter the hex just South of Wakkanai tomorrow. The 1 hex width peninsula that stymied my attempts to reinforce could now prove a problem for the Allies if I can get enough in place and dig it in. I've brought a couple of big base forces with DP guns and some decent arty. It's a x2 wooded hex so I'll need to get to forts 2 quickly to feel I have a chance to hold here. He could pile as much as he wants into Wakkanai without SL in this game. That could be scary.

Just judging from the troops at Ketoi, Uruppa and now Wakkanai, he could drop 7k AV very quickly and maybe more. I should have 2k AV in within days, and 3k AV within a week. It's a risk though, as bombardments could take a serious toll here. Does he change it up and try to hold, then bypass? Or just smash mouth?
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 1, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Invasion action off Wakkanai (122,48)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

389 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
APD Kline
APD Knudson
APD Barr
APD Scribner
APD Greene
APD Liddle
APD Belknap
APD Goldsborough
APD King
APD Stringham
APD Colhoun
APD Ward
APD Schley
APD Chew

Allied ground losses:
284 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 31 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

APD Kline fired at enemy troops

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Ketoi-jima , at 134,50

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 45,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 9

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IV x 5
Kittyhawk IV x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IV: 1 destroyed
Kittyhawk IV: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 8th Division, at 123,50 , near Bihoro

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 41,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 23
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 13
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 8
Ki-84a Frank x 8

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 4 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 6 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 8th Division, at 123,50 , near Bihoro

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 11
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 10
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt II x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt II: 4 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wakkanai (122,48)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

44 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LST-207, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Triumph
LST-219
LST-217
LST-241

15cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging LST-207 at 3,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging LST-207 at 3,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging LST-207 at 3,000 yards
AM Triumph fired at enemy troops

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 21611 troops, 284 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 762

Defending force 112780 troops, 1543 guns, 2286 vehicles, Assault Value = 2760

Japanese ground losses:
712 casualties reported
Squads: 27 destroyed, 35 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 15 (4 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Assaulting units:
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
72nd Division
43rd Div /2
89th Div /2
218th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
206th Naval Construction Battalion
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
Soya Fortress
5th Fleet
178th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
5th USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Division
2/4th Armoured Regiment
98th Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
3rd Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
2/6th Armoured Regiment
762nd Tank Battalion
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
1st Australian Division
670th Tank Destroyer Battalion
77th Infantry Division
7th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Division
11th Airborne Div /2
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
I Corps Artillery
147th Field Artillery Regiment
I US Corps
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
205th Field Artillery Battalion
160th USA Base Force
82nd Mortar Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 91349 troops, 1343 guns, 2102 vehicles, Assault Value = 2760

Defending force 40912 troops, 414 guns, 23 vehicles, Assault Value = 716

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 2552

Japanese adjusted defense: 1133

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
3915 casualties reported
Squads: 43 destroyed, 291 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 76 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 60 disabled
Guns lost 46 (9 destroyed, 37 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1545 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 146 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 44 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 29 disabled
Vehicles lost 106 (8 destroyed, 98 disabled)

Assaulting units:
98th Infantry Division
762nd Tank Battalion
77th Infantry Division
2/4th Armoured Regiment
1st Australian Division
3rd Marine Division
2/6th Armoured Regiment
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
192nd Tank Battalion
2nd Marine Division
93rd Infantry Division
7th Infantry Division
670th Tank Destroyer Battalion
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
5th USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Regiment
11th Airborne Div /2
205th Field Artillery Battalion
I US Corps
160th USA Base Force
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
147th Field Artillery Regiment
82nd Mortar Battalion
I Corps Artillery
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
72nd Division
43rd Div /2
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
89th Div /2
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
218th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
5th Fleet
Soya Fortress
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
206th Naval Construction Battalion
178th JAAF AF Bn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

[mind_messing]

Wakkanai is the reason why every possible invasion hex in Japan needs level 6 forts, but the non-base invasion of the hex SE of Wakkanai was a very elegant move. There's a nice justification for keeping a large QRF in move mode in a central location!

I think that with Wakkanai falling, I'd keep the pressure on as best you can - it's the best bombardment target on the map right now for the IJN, or it will be once he rotates his fighter squadrons in.