2.9.0 Liberated France Calls Out of the Reserves

[rkr1958]

I originally posted this in my AAR and Mr Centuur pointed out that it was a bug. The bug is that a liberated France is asked to call out the reserves.

[rkr1958]

game turn

[Joseignacio]

Is it a bug? Hmmm

When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with. The France entry on the partisan table reverts to France (from occupied France).

9.6 Calling out the reserves
Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power.

The matter would be whether France is at war with the Axis anew or it's just a change of name. Given the rest of the rules (cooperation, force pools, etc.) I would say it's not merely a change of name.

[Centuur]

The question is whether or not France was already at war with Germany or not when it gets liberated. A major power only reverts to peace the moment it gets completely conquered. France isn't completely conquered, since there is no sentence in the Vichy creation rules which support this. It only says the following:

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country

Since France never reverted to peace, it cannot call out it's reserves again...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The question is whether or not France was already at war with Germany or not when it gets liberated. A major power only reverts to peace the moment it gets completely conquered. France isn't completely conquered, since there is no sentence in the Vichy creation rules which support this. It only says the following:

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country

Since France never reverted to peace, it cannot call out it's reserves again...

It's not Occuppied France (with no political existence in the game, merely the description of an area) or Vichy France (with political existence) that we need to compare, according to the rules, but Free Francem, whci obviously is at war with GE or AXIS, unless conquered as well, which is extremely unprobable.

When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with.

IMO this does not abide by the rules you mean because it's not the same country the unconquered "FF" as the new "France". The same as Vichy France or FF were not the original Major Power "France" of 1939.

I guess the rules list would be against this and I accept this ruling makes no sense, but the fault is not of the interpretation but of the wording of the RAW, many times vague. And let's remember that France is the sole country with a specific regulation for the successor countries, Vichy + FF and later France again, so the specific ruling supersedes the general rules.

[Courtenay]

I have to confess that I find the reserve rule ambiguous in this case; I don't know which is right. Has the question been addressed anywhere (FAQs or elsewhere)?

[Joseignacio]

Saw nothing in the 2009 Clarifications. Sent to the Wifdiscussion list.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The question is whether or not France was already at war with Germany or not when it gets liberated. A major power only reverts to peace the moment it gets completely conquered. France isn't completely conquered, since there is no sentence in the Vichy creation rules which support this. It only says the following:

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country

Since France never reverted to peace, it cannot call out it's reserves again...

It's not Occuppied France (with no political existence in the game, merely the description of an area) or Vichy France (with political existence) that we need to compare, according to the rules, but Free Francem, whci obviously is at war with GE or AXIS, unless conquered as well, which is extremely unprobable.

When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with.

IMO this does not abide by the rules you mean because it's not the same country the unconquered "FF" as the new "France". The same as Vichy France or FF were not the original Major Power "France" of 1939.

I guess the rules list would be against this and I accept this ruling makes no sense, but the fault is not of the interpretation but of the wording of the RAW, many times vague. And let's remember that France is the sole country with a specific regulation for the successor countries, Vichy + FF and later France again, so the specific ruling supersedes the general rules.

In the rules for Vichy creation, there is no mentioning of any change for France. So it is still at war with Germany, even when it is not actually present in the game. It didn't revert to peace, because the rules don't say it did. Only if a major power reverts to peace (being completely conquered) it can call out it's reserves again after liberation. The creation of Free France and Vichy didn't change the fact that France is at war.

The rule which says that France is at war with all the countries that Free France was at war with before liberation is quite sound, because usually Free France would be at war with more countries that France was at the moment Vichy was declared. Otherwise, one could argue that France didn't make any DoW's (or got DoW'ed on) after the moment Vichy was created. And that's of course what is prevented by this rule.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The question is whether or not France was already at war with Germany or not when it gets liberated. A major power only reverts to peace the moment it gets completely conquered. France isn't completely conquered, since there is no sentence in the Vichy creation rules which support this. It only says the following:

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country

Since France never reverted to peace, it cannot call out it's reserves again...

It's not Occuppied France (with no political existence in the game, merely the description of an area) or Vichy France (with political existence) that we need to compare, according to the rules, but Free Francem, whci obviously is at war with GE or AXIS, unless conquered as well, which is extremely unprobable.

When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with.

IMO this does not abide by the rules you mean because it's not the same country the unconquered "FF" as the new "France". The same as Vichy France or FF were not the original Major Power "France" of 1939.

I guess the rules list would be against this and I accept this ruling makes no sense, but the fault is not of the interpretation but of the wording of the RAW, many times vague. And let's remember that France is the sole country with a specific regulation for the successor countries, Vichy + FF and later France again, so the specific ruling supersedes the general rules.

In the rules for Vichy creation, there is no mentioning of any change for France. So it is still at war with Germany, even when it is not actually present in the game. It didn't revert to peace, because the rules don't say it did. Only if a major power reverts to peace (being completely conquered) it can call out it's reserves again after liberation. The creation of Free France and Vichy didn't change the fact that France is at war.

The rule which says that France is at war with all the countries that Free France was at war with before liberation is quite sound, because usually Free France would be at war with more countries that France was at the moment Vichy was declared. Otherwise, one could argue that France didn't make any DoW's (or got DoW'ed on) after the moment Vichy was created. And that's of course what is prevented by this rule.

"France" has no land and no actions of any type, counters or pool.

It ceases to exist. All of it's pools and lands are either Occupied France (with no political entity), Vichy France or Free France. And is no longer a Major Power or Minor Country, which is clear because it has no action type available.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio




It's not Occuppied France (with no political existence in the game, merely the description of an area) or Vichy France (with political existence) that we need to compare, according to the rules, but Free Francem, whci obviously is at war with GE or AXIS, unless conquered as well, which is extremely unprobable.



IMO this does not abide by the rules you mean because it's not the same country the unconquered "FF" as the new "France". The same as Vichy France or FF were not the original Major Power "France" of 1939.

I guess the rules list would be against this and I accept this ruling makes no sense, but the fault is not of the interpretation but of the wording of the RAW, many times vague. And let's remember that France is the sole country with a specific regulation for the successor countries, Vichy + FF and later France again, so the specific ruling supersedes the general rules.

In the rules for Vichy creation, there is no mentioning of any change for France. So it is still at war with Germany, even when it is not actually present in the game. It didn't revert to peace, because the rules don't say it did. Only if a major power reverts to peace (being completely conquered) it can call out it's reserves again after liberation. The creation of Free France and Vichy didn't change the fact that France is at war.

The rule which says that France is at war with all the countries that Free France was at war with before liberation is quite sound, because usually Free France would be at war with more countries that France was at the moment Vichy was declared. Otherwise, one could argue that France didn't make any DoW's (or got DoW'ed on) after the moment Vichy was created. And that's of course what is prevented by this rule.

"France" has no land and no actions of any type, counters or pool.

It ceases to exist. All of it's pools and lands are either Occupied France (with no political entity), Vichy France or Free France. And is no longer a Major Power or Minor Country, which is clear because it has no action type available.

France doesn't cease to exist, because that's not stated in the rules when Vichy is created. A major power ceases to exist when it gets conquered again, after being liberated after being completely conquered...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Saw nothing in the 2009 Clarifications. Sent to the Wifdiscussion list.

Perhaps you missed the answers to Q13.7-18 and Q13.7-19.

Free France is the successor to 1939 France and "Liberated France" succeeds Free France.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Saw nothing in the 2009 Clarifications. Sent to the Wifdiscussion list.

Perhaps you missed the answers to Q13.7-18 and Q13.7-19.

Free France is the successor to 1939 France and "Liberated France" succeeds Free France.

I did, but successors is not the same as the same country. Vichy France is also a successor of France and is not at war with the axis. Occupied France is also a succesor and is a conquered Major Power.

If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France.

Free France is an alternative government also established at this time. Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified. It is run by the French player. Free France starts at war with all countries France was at war with, and at peace with all others (including Vichy France).

[paulderynck]

Fine, both are successors, but Reserves have already been called out for both. The one time you can call out reserves is if you go back to Peace. AAMOF in CE, Vichy is given the possibility of having Reserves to call out and Vichy starts at Peace and thus can get Reserves. But FF succeeds France and Liberated France succeeds FF and is at war with the Axis throughout. No more Reserves for them.

[Gar-Dog]

Is it just me, or is it absolutely ridiculous that a newly liberated country would have reserves ready to call up?

RAW or RAC notwithstanding, newly liberated countries shouldn't have reserves immediately available without building them. It takes time to train & build up that organizational infrastructure into a fighting unit and supply those beans, bullets, and bandages...

[paulderynck]

They don't. This is what I've been saying. Only if you go from Peace to war can you get them. In the Collectors Edition, this can now happen with Vichy.

[Joseignacio]

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. [:D]

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Is it just me, or is it absolutely ridiculous that a newly liberated country would have reserves ready to call up?

RAW or RAC notwithstanding, newly liberated countries shouldn't have reserves immediately available without building them. It takes time to train & build up that organizational infrastructure into a fighting unit and supply those beans, bullets, and bandages...

Absolutely ridiculous?

All over France, from the BBC and the Radiodiffusion nationale (the Free French broadcaster) the population knew of the Allies' advance toward Paris after the end of the battle of Normandy. RN had been in the hands of the Vichy propaganda minister, Philippe Henriot, since November 1942 until de Gaulle took it over in the Ordonnance (he signed in Algiers on 4 April 1944),

On 19 August, continuing their retreat eastwards, columns of German vehicles moved down the Champs Élysées. Posters calling citizens to arm had previously been pasted on walls by FFI members. These posters called for a general mobilization of the Parisians, arguing that "the war continues"; they called on the Parisian police, the Republican Guard, the Gendarmerie, the Garde Mobile, the Groupe mobile de réserve (the police units replacing the army), and patriotic Frenchmen ("all men from 18 to 50 able to carry a weapon") to join "the struggle against the invader". Other posters assured that "victory is near" and promised "chastisement for the traitors", i.e. Vichy loyalists, and collaborators.

The posters were signed by the "Parisian Committee of the Liberation", in agreement with the Provisional Government of the French Republic, and under the orders of "Regional Chief Colonel Rol" (Henri Rol-Tanguy), the commander of the French Forces of the Interior in the Île de France region. Then, the first skirmishes between the French and the German occupiers began. During the fighting, small mobile units of the Red Cross moved into the city to assist the French and Germans who were wounded. That same day in Pantin, a barge filled with mines exploded and destroyed the Great Windmills.

On 20 August, as barricades began to appear, Resistance fighters organized themselves to sustain a siege. Trucks were positioned, trees cut down, and trenches were dug in the pavement to free paving stones for consolidating the barricades. These materials were transported by men, women, and children using wooden carts. Fuel trucks were attacked and captured. Civilian vehicles were commandeered, painted with camouflage, and marked with the FFI emblem. The Resistance used them to transport ammunition and orders from one barricade to another.[citation needed]

Skirmishes reached their peak on 22 August, when some German units tried to leave their fortifications. At 09:00 on 23 August, under Choltitz' orders, the Germans opened fire on the Grand Palais, an FFI stronghold, and German tanks fired at the barricades in the streets. Adolf Hitler gave the order to inflict maximum damage on the city.


It is estimated that between 800 and 1,000 Resistance fighters were killed during the Battle for Paris, and another 1,500 were wounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberatio ... st_1944%29

From September 1944 onward, the number of men recruited from metropolitan France dramatically increased. In late September 1944, most African soldiers were replaced by young recruits of the French Forces of the Interior to better deal with the cold weather. Bolstered by rapid recruitment from metropolitan France, the number of troops rose from around 560,000 in the summer of 1944 to 1 million by the end of the year and eventually 1.3 million by April 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Fran ... ree_French

[Veloz]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I originally posted this in my AAR and Mr Centuur pointed out that it was a bug. The bug is that a liberated France is asked to call out the reserves.

Vichy is always a problem same as liberate France in most of games World of Flames have same Bugs your right josé Ignacio in most of the games Vichy has not industries an is a breach into defensives lines germany so for germans conquer parís was a mistake just for sign the train back with no enough money to impressive UK; back in 1944 Stalin ordered a suicide Normandy landing with no losses for england but Yes for americans so france was back-pay for the corsair model; France for Americans and his DD-day was a mistake; in World of flames Americans do not gain nothing just stack units ; nice explanations Ignacio we some read the improves of World of flames such a rules must be read and best known with your comments helpful so Thx.

[Centuur]

Let's put things in perspective. Sure, the number of troops that France raised was a lot, but in terms of MWIF, we are talking about 7-8 corps above the 4 that they already had before D-Day. You can build 7 corps with the production capabities that France has after it gets liberated. So no reserves needed to get to this point historically...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. [:D]

No... it's the rules for the game.