Mega invasion fleets

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Mr.Frag
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Post by Mr.Frag »

It's really a downer when I read Mogs conclusion: 'The Japanese plan of operations has been boiled down and condensed into standard movements.' Yuck, I know he's right - but I don't like it.


I don't think you quite understood his meaning. Japan has a window in which to win the game by taking advantage of poor planning by the Allied player. Japan either plans and uses the window or looses. There is no choice involved, and the movements are completely based on what the Japan player can discover by outplaying the Allied player.

This really has come down over the last year to a battle of wits, with the winner taking all. What Mogami and your quote leaves out is the simple fact that Japan cannot win either of the historical scenarios *if* the Allied player plays a very simple game of protecting Noumea and Brisbane properly. You will notice Mogami plays with a 200% bonus for Japan, because he too understands that without a massive boost to Japan, the Allied player will never loose.

The problem is that too many Allied players throw this simple fact out the window and forget the real goal which is preventing Noumea/Brisbane from falling and actually do themselves in completely in the process. I have had many long threads with folks arguing the point about the great defense of PM. The facts are PM = Noumea/Brisbane capture, yet people will argue for years that they can hold ;)

The Japan player can not win this game EVER. The Allied player must LOOSE the game for Japan. It is only now starting to sink into people that these are the simple facts. ;)
Mike_B20
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Post by Mike_B20 »

The idea that Japan capturing either Noumea or Brisbane would have won them the war or the South Pacific is laughable.
Allies would have simply changed to new staging areas.
The fact that Japan winning these locations in UV probably wins them the game simply reminds me that this is a very simplified model of the struggle.

The fact that Australians have to walk their troops up and down the Australian coastline is a joke.
The Ozzies could have had entire divisions moved between Cairns, Rockhampton or Sydney and Brisbane overnight.
As I said, we had good roads and railways and the public would have provided all transportation necessary by way of cars, trucks, delivery vans or whatever.
Moving troops to PM on the other hand would have been a genuine risk but otherwise the interior lines meant any Japanese invasion of the Australian coast was a pipe dream.

Yes, I made a mistake moving troops out of Brisbane but as I said earlier, I had specified variable reinforcements and my opponent went ahead with fixed reinforcements and the 'bums rush'.
That's what annoys me the most.
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Mr.Frag
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Post by Mr.Frag »

Mike, UV is a game, the idea is to win ;)

When WitP comes out, you will be safe from getting caught by those kinds of mistakes.
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Post by Mike_B20 »

Winning I don't care about really.
I'm more interested in fighting a semi-historical recreation of the struggle in the South Pacific.

If I ever play as the IJN my opponents will have an advantage, because I will never in a thousand years load everything I have into one giant invasion fleet with the idea of rushing a 'victory location' LOL

That will obviously free up their strategic options somewhat.:)
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RevRick
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Very simple, Mike.

Post by RevRick »

Don't play this maniac again. If someone wants to play the game like a flaming idiot without regard to all the possible consequences of a real life maneuver of that nature - like a real commander would have to (or possibly find themselves the beneficiary of a samurai neck massage, or court martial at the very least in the USN system) - find someone who understands the nature of wargaming instead of just gaming the system to win. Anyone can play like a roaring weirdo just to rack up points - like the twitchy fingered kids with their shooters - but to capture the flavor of actually being in command is the essence of wargaming Taking an utterly unrealistic shot at a point grabber without a real understanding the consequences of stripping your entire theater for a such a radical operation renders such people unworthy of the headache, nor the effort, in my opinion. I want to play wargamers not wargaming geeks who manage the system. When I was playing board games, such people were not readmitted to the polite society of gamers we ran.
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Post by PzB74 »

Ahem - can I offer one suggestion?

Instead of calling eacother names and make feelings run of with you - Talk to eachother, say what kinda game you're looking for and agree upon house rules!

I feel it's human limitations - not game limitations that's really the problem here! Enough gaming potential here for everyone for years to come.

--------------------------------------

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A little boy returning home from his first day at
school said to his mother, "Mom, what's sex?"

His mother, who believed in all the most modern
educational theories, gave him a detailed
explanation, covering all aspects of the tricky
subject.

When she had finished, the little lad produced
an enrollment form which he had brought home
from school and said, "Yes, but how am I going
to get all that into this one little square?"

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Mr.Frag
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Post by Mr.Frag »

Huh? :rolleyes:

So, because I play UV with the plan of winning the game, I'm just another of the "gamey" folks or as Rev says, a "maniac"? :eek:

I would turn that around completely on you and say that because you moved all your troops away from rear area bases for a "gamey" forward defense that was not historically possible that indeed you are the one playing "gamey" :D

Historically no commander on the planet would have been allowed to pull troops away from the defense of these key bases.

As in all things in life, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want it, play scenario 16 instead of 17/19 with Midway already factored into the game. You will see that it plays out more historically as it is historical. ;)

I fail to understand why someone playing Japan who gathers great intel about the Allied side and uses it properly to plan a major invasion to take advantage of this information is playing "gamey". All that is required to block a invasion fleet from landing troops is a single naval vessel. You didn't have your navy available to do so, therefore you couldn't block the landing. Somehow this all gets translated into the Japan side resorting to "trickery and gamey play" instead of the obvious facts of the matter which is you got caught napping :D

Take it as a valuable learning experience and adjust your play to account for it instead of turning it into a negative. As with all games, one improves by loosing and learning.
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RevRick
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To those who I have offended...

Post by RevRick »

my apologies. I could have blamed it on being sick and tired, but that is not the only operative factor in this case. I have been gaming for 29 years - and will NOT play someone who plays a quirk in the game scoring mechanism to ahistorically or unrealistically win on a point schedule. As I said, in my opinion, humble or otherwise, the essence of war gaming is to place oneself in the place of a commander, or participant, to test one's skill in the theater of operations - not to find a quirky way to claim a victory nor how fast one can maneuver a keyboard of game controller. Again, to those I have offended with my language, I apologize.

BTW, in PBEM games, is it possible to save a turn in the computer, rename it, and then open the last turn under your opponents nationality? If so, such would be a very effective way to garner a lot of intelligence.
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Mr.Frag
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Post by Mr.Frag »

Rev, a PBEM turn cannot be opened without the correct password so that ability to gain intel does not exist. That would also fall into the catagory of cheating. If you can't play without cheating, wargaming really isn't for you (not aimed at you personally) :D

As far as putting together a large scale attack to strike it the rear, it is not as simple as it sounds. It requires far more thought then you might think.

(a) Mines must be cleared from the destination. Japan only has a very few mine sweepers that can be used with any speed or fuel capacity. Therefore an advanced network of refueling ships must be planned to keep these ships on station. One of the very first lessons you will learn is that MSW ships that are sweeping automatically abandon their task and run for home when low on fuel. These ships also sink if even a SG manages to tag them making them very difficult to use in hostile waters. Due to the extreme number of minefields in these rear area bases, you have to plan to keep a group of MSW alive in the base hex for at least 4 turns. Loose them, and you loose your invasion. To protect them means you need a large CV force in a nearby hex. This group has to not only protect all the transports, but also LR Cap the MSW or the invasion fails.

(b) AA Ammo is depleted from ships as air attacks pick on them turn after turn. There is no option to reload ammo so as the invasion progresses, the losses increase dramatically.

(c) Main ammo is depleted from Capital ships for each TF that attempts to block the invasion fleet. These ships run for home as soon as they run low which strips the fleet in a matter of 2 turns of much of their firepower. Again, since there is no ammo within 8 odd days steaming, there is plenty of time to destroy these sub-fleets on the way home as they can't fight back.

(d) Bombardment cannot be used for these invasions as it depletes the very ammo that must be used to fight off surface/air attacks that will abort the invasion.

(e) Constant refueling efforts cause operational points to get burned causing problems with reaction abilities and ship speeds, making keeping ships in formation a pain in the butt. No fuel, you loose.

(f) constant air ops drain fuel from CV/CVL at incredible rates, no fuel, no planes, invasion wiped out (see Mogami's unload airgroups tactic which removes fuel issue for the other side)

(g) Allies get to attack MSW fleet with surface fleet while it is prepping the base for landing. Only defense is to risk Capital ships to support the MSW which causes Capital ships to take mine damage at high rates.

Many many other parts must be carefully planned to pull this off successfully, it is not a simple matter of just putting everything on a AP and heading for these bases.

The Allied side starts with 3 divisions worth of troops to protect the Aussies and gains a 4th division shortly thereafter. Japan NEVER has enough troops to counter this. Only by misallocating these Allied troops can Japan pull off a invasion.

If one wants to talk about history, one should look at history. Operations such as Market Garden, D-Day, Pearl Harbour, Ardennes, etc all fall into your catagory of ahistorical, yet they all happened, so I guess it becomes rather impossible by your "imposed" rules to even have a war game that models these actual events. I too have been playing wargames as long as you have, and I accept the limitations of the gaming system that I happen to be playing with and work within what is technically capable.

An auto victory rule exists within UV. Use of such a rule is within the game or Gary would not have programmed the possibility. By calling use of this rule (rule 19.2 in the manual) ahistorical or unrealistic, you are basically challenging the developer who wrote the rule into the game.

Rule 19.2 is not a quirk in the game scoring mechanism. It is a fundimental part of the game. I'm sorry you don't like the rule, but it is not in any way an abuse of the system.

If you remove Rule 19.2, you might as well remove rule 19.0 and 19.1 completely and simply say that there is no winner at all, we are just going to play the game to have fun. I would think you might find trouble locating Japan players to even play the game without rule 19.2 as there is no other way for the game to end in other then a Allied Decisive Victory as per rule 19.1.

I don't take these threads seriously because everyone has their own views on things, but I do fail to understand why people question things when they loose to someone who is simply following the same set of rules. If you don't like rule 19.2, what do you think the Japan player should do? Sit back and wait for the Allied steamroller?

Without Rule 19.2, Japan's only option is to send EVERY ship back to Japan, disband/withdraw EVERY air unit/troop and deny every possible victory point to the Allied player by having NOTHING to loose.
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Post by ADavidB »

Originally posted by Mike_B20
Winning I don't care about really.
I'm more interested in fighting a semi-historical recreation of the struggle in the South Pacific.

If I ever play as the IJN my opponents will have an advantage, because I will never in a thousand years load everything I have into one giant invasion fleet with the idea of rushing a 'victory location' LOL

That will obviously free up their strategic options somewhat.:)


BRAVO!!! This is a man who understands what war gaming should be.

What bothers me about UV is that it is so close to being a superior "semi-historical recreation" - what I want is for it to be brought closer to historical and have less fudge factors for gaminess-sake. This is one of the reasons why I like to play scenario 16, rather than the "sci-fi" scenarios. A good Japanese player should be able to take advantage of his resources early on to gain enough points to hold off the Allies in 43.

The problem with UV is that it has been designed to attempt to provide a "balanced" game - and so the "pure gamers" like it and the "historical gamers" have problems with it. Does this mean that a Dec 41 - May 42 Pacific war scenario should be balanced too? ( Thinking of WitP.)

I guess the real need is for 2x3/Matrix to give the option for "historic" versus "balanced" play in their games - agree with your opponent on which one you go with, set a switch, and go.

In the end, I want the option to see if I can do better than history, not play a sci-fi game.

Dave Baranyi
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Post by Mr.Frag »

Dave,

War Gaming is about being able to take something that historically happened, giving you command prior to it happening and letting you prove that if it wasn't for the bad plans, things could have been different.

If you are simply repeating the exact same mistakes, you are not actually playing the game, might as well watch the movie.

As games scale up from a tactical level towards the operational level, the ability to improve what happened historically becomes more and more dramatic.

At a tactical level, you are stuck with exactly the units on exactly the same terrain and the best you can hope to do is use manuever and firepower to alter the outcome.

As you shift up the timescale and the command level, the options expand where you now have the choice of picking the units and terrain to fight on instead of simply repeating the tactical battle.

By the time you get to a area level command (UV), you now have sufficent control to completely alter history by controlling entire compaigns.

When you move all the way up the food scale, you get into actually controlling the politics that govern when countries actually enter into the war and control technologies used (developing equipment).

Each level of wargaming has it's own set of options and ability to alter history. If you expect an operational level game like UV to play historically, you are never going to be happy, because both sides during the time period made a large number of what we consider extremely stupid mistakes that we as players have no interests in repeating.

If you think UV has problems, these will be magnified 100 times over in WitP as the Japan player not only gets more time to impose their will, but also has far more abilities to alter history.

Next thing you guys will be complaining that I don't split my 1st Airborne Paras into three groups when attacking Arnhem to ensure failure because it's not historical! Try posting that one in the AA forum and see how well it is received :p
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Post by ADavidB »

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Dave,

War Gaming is about being able to take something that historically happened, giving you command prior to it happening and letting you prove that if it wasn't for the bad plans, things could have been different.

( clip )

By the time you get to a area level command (UV), you now have sufficent control to completely alter history by controlling entire compaigns.

( clip )

Each level of wargaming has it's own set of options and ability to alter history. If you expect an operational level game like UV to play historically, you are never going to be happy, because both sides during the time period made a large number of what we consider extremely stupid mistakes that we as players have no interests in repeating.

If you think UV has problems, these will be magnified 100 times over in WitP as the Japan player not only gets more time to impose their will, but also has far more abilities to alter history.

( clip )



Editing out the examples and leaving the "meat" - I actually agree with your basic premise - what you are saying is exactly what I am looking for in a historic war game ( versus say, a future sci-fi wargame, or a fantasy world war game or an alternate history war game, etc. )

My big gripe about UV is the same that I had for 10 years with Pacwar - the little ahistoric hardwired settings in the game(s) that take away from the players' abilities to "alter history".

I want to start with as close to the historical conditions and settings as possible, and then see how well ( or badly ) I and my opponent can "change history". UV comes close, but it can be improved.

Dave Baranyi

( BTW - were you ever involved in any aspect of the TRUMP program...? )
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Post by TIMJOT »

Originally posted by Mike_B20
Winning I don't care about really.
I'm more interested in fighting a semi-historical recreation of the struggle in the South Pacific.

If I ever play as the IJN my opponents will have an advantage, because I will never in a thousand years load everything I have into one giant invasion fleet with the idea of rushing a 'victory location' LOL

That will obviously free up their strategic options somewhat.:)


Mike,

You cant have it both ways. Striping Austrailia (Brisbane) of defences and deploying most everything forward is every bit as a ahistorical as your opponent sending everything to Brisbane.

The auto victory condiitions are there to give both players a chance to win and by default keep both players honest. Historically in July 42 to vast majority of MacArthurs command was 2 US and 2 Aussie Divisions were still in Austrailia. In fact all of these divivions were available during the time of Coral sea yet the allied command felt it could only spare a little more than a reinforced brigade to defend a critical base like Port Moresby. Why? Because no matter how improbable they couldnt be sure the Japanese wouldnt strike Australia.

Let me put it this way. I as an allied player can easily send the Americal division to Lunga on turn one, stoping any IJN advance through the Solomons cold, but if the IJN player then makes an end run and sends a mega invasion to Noumea and captures it. Is it the games fault or mine?:rolleyes:
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Post by Mike_B20 »

I had sent one brigade from Brisbane to PM, all the rest were still in Australia.
The trouble is, the movement of troops still in Australia is seriously flawed in UV...no strategic movement possible, they have to walk everywhere.

I've already admitted that the mistake was mine for moving more than one or two brigades out of Brisbane...no need to continue harping on that point Mr Frag.
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Sorry Mike B20 ...

Post by gus »

... but the problem here is not with UV but with your defense. If the Japanese player is operating in the Coral Sea at the very least you are obligated to shadow his every move so that you can be prepared for the possibility of an end run as happened in your game.

Like most great games, Chess immediately come to mind, you are fighting to control a central key area. In Chess this area is static i.e. the 4 central squares, in strategy/wargames it can be variable as reinforcements arrive in theater changing the balance of power and therefore the central area being contested. For the UV scenarios starting May 1942 the central key area for the first 3-6 months is arguably the Coral Sea so anytime there is a projection of power into this area the other side must react. This can be direct confrontation using naval air or surface TF's or shadowing with LBA, subs etc but the threat must be acknowledged and dealt with or you are inviting disaster.

Also you must have telgraphed your intentions for your opponent to pull an audacious stunt like this. If you move all of your airpower and available infantry to forward contested bases your opponent will have a pretty good idea of what was left behind to defend your rear areas. This is especially true when you are playing with historical reinforcements but again you should have been aware of this too.

So live and learn, when you calm down over the moral outrage you feel over this you will realize that your opponent was simply playing the cards dealt to them and that it was more a question of you overextending your position than your opponent bending the rules to their own advantage.

-g
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Post by Mr.Frag »

no need to continue harping on that point Mr Frag.


Not picking on you Mike, I was just responding to others who wanted to blame UV's engine :D
the movement of troops still in Australia is seriously flawed in UV


To counter this road effect as you might want to call it, one should keep the 3rd Division loaded up and ready to deploy at a moments notice coupled with maintaining your C-47 fleet at a base that has the 7th Division troops. The combination of the two (mass airlandings) and followup troops by sea makes you untouchable. Always keep in the back of your mind that EVERYTHING north of Townsville is disposable when you look at the state of the map. You can't go wrong if you follow this thought process. ;)
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Post by Mike_B20 »

Well, I don't see why we should have to invent mechanisms to get around the problem Mr Frag.
Matrix should just fix the Oz intercity(except for Cooktown) movement as overnight (which it would have been, in the event of an invasion).
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Post by Mike_B20 »

Gus, as I said earlier, with the current scouting limitation of 10 sightings on a taskforce, there was no way of knowing the size or composition of his taskforces, they looked pretty much like two 10 ship surface TF's.

And once again 'mea culpa' yes, I was incredibly, stupendously, unbelievably stupid, idiotic and senseless for moving more than one or two brigades out of Brisbane.

My opponent was perfectly entitled to load everything into one invasion fleet and send it wherever he wanted...but for me the game rather than a strategic simulation suddenly became more apparent.

Perhaps the developers made a deliberate decision to restict troop movements by the allies in Australia to march speed.
Allowing strategic movement for allies in Oz would have freed up many troops to be deployed elsewhere and this didn't happen historically.
I believe it didn't happen historically, not because there was any real threat of Japanese invasion but more as a result for genuine concern about the lives of soldiers sent elsewhere and bowing to the political pressures brought on by a public fear of invasion.
In reality, many soldiers based in Oz could have been usefully emplyed elsewhere, because of the reality of strategic movement.
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Post by TIMJOT »

Originally posted by Mike_B20
Well, I don't see why we should have to invent mechanisms to get around the problem Mr Frag.
Matrix should just fix the Oz intercity(except for Cooktown) movement as overnight (which it would have been, in the event of an invasion).


I agree it should be easier to move troops in Oz. WitP will have rail movement and highways so I am guessing it wont be a problem there. It looks like you will be able to create your own UV within the WitP game editor, so the perfect UV may lie somewhere within WitP. Like Frag said, nothing is going to be fixed in UV until WitP comes out and from the looks of it WitP is going to feature all sorts of improvements over UV that should eventually be back fitted to UV.
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Post by gus »

Originally posted by Mike_B20
... as I said earlier, with the current scouting limitation of 10 sightings on a taskforce, there was no way of knowing the size or composition of his taskforces, they looked pretty much like two 10 ship surface TF's.
Chances are that if you see a naval combat TF loitering about in the same general area for more than 2 turns that it is at the very least accompanied by AO's, so it is worth checking out.
Originally posted by Mike_B20
And once again 'mea culpa' yes, I was incredibly, stupendously, unbelievably stupid, idiotic and senseless for moving more than one or two brigades out of Brisbane.


Nothing to be sorry for here, you just learned in one game what must of us have yet to learn after 15 months of playing! You are a more capable player, you will never be burned like this again, you will find that your own game is more reflective of what happened historically and god help the guy that tries to do this you in a future game ;-)
Originally posted by Mike_B20
My opponent was perfectly entitled to load everything into one invasion fleet and send it wherever he wanted...but for me the game rather than a strategic simulation suddenly became more apparent.
There is no wargame that I am aware of that that does not suffer from this. The overwhelming power of Allied LBA is a far more serious distortion of the historical record than the 'end run' IMO, but that is another argument that has been beaten to death by braver souls than I.
Originally posted by Mike_B20
Perhaps the developers made a deliberate decision to restict troop movements by the allies in Australia to march speed.
Allowing strategic movement for allies in Oz would have freed up many troops to be deployed elsewhere and this didn't happen historically.


I have wondered about this as well but I am pretty certain that the rail/truck transport of a full division even from Rockhampton to Brisbane would take several days to complete and of course additional divisions would have to queue up dependent on the bandwidth of the track, available rolling stock and of course Japanese interdiction. It may be assumed, I suppose, that if the Japanese were bold enough to invade Australia that they would also isolate the battlefield via sabotage and direct targeting of railheads, depots and switching yards.

-g
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