Soviet 160mm mortar effectiveness

[ciril]

Is it me or are these things prime tank killers in the game? A 3x barrage on a platoon of tanks in the woods will knock out at least one tanks, usually two. So two such barrages will eliminate a platoon.

The question is, can a mortar (granted, a battery of six in Fulda 85 scenario) knock out main battle tanks so easily in reality?

[CapnDarwin]

ciril, 160mm is a good sized round. 155mm arty can disable a tank with a near hit, let alone a direct one. My guess is, depending on the targeted tank, they are fall outs and not kills. Loss of tracks, damaged gun tubes, lost/damaged sighting equipment, etc., leading to a combat ineffective subunit. Do you have a save game we could look at where a barrage is falling on tanks?

[ciril]

Thanks for replying. How often do these direct or near-direct hits happen, especially since the mortar is hardly the most accurate weapon there is?

I'll send you a .save file in PM.

[CapnDarwin]

I got the PM and will try to look things over this weekend.

[MaxDamage]

Direct hits are not required to damage vehicles. Large calibers produce a lot of heavy fragments whic hremain damaging to armor from 10+ meters away. You just need a lot of dice rolls and one of them will fail.

[CapnDarwin]

I am still waiting on a scenario file to check what happened in this particular case, but my guess is fall outs from near hits.

[CapnDarwin]

Ciril, after some delay time and finally seeing the event in question, The 6 tubes of 160mm mortars managed to knock out/fall out two M1 (damaged and rendered combat ineffective) and actually killed one. That surprised me until I noticed they were M1s and not an up-armored IP or A1 version. Given the lower armor value of the M1 a lucky kill shot is possible. Think of it as a direct hit to the engine deck or turret top. I think things are working as designed in this case. Still, it sucks to lose tanks that way. [8D]

[ciril]

Thanks much for taking the time to check that.

The turn I sent you was just an exiample; it happened on a number of occasions that the targeted platoon of M1 tanks was left with no or one tank after a barrage of two mortar batteries.

Realizing the tank busting capability of my mortars, I changed my tactics to revolve around firing, moving and resting them. Now you see your M1 platoon, now you don't!

But then we have a situation where a mortar, a lobbed round infantry support weapon, is a primary threat to heavy armor. The 122mm gun batteries didn't do nearly as much. Hmmm.

[IronMikeGolf]

ORIGINAL: MaxDamage

Direct hits are not required to damage vehicles. Large calibers produce a lot of heavy fragments whic hremain damaging to armor from 10+ meters away. You just need a lot of dice rolls and one of them will fail.

Soviet HE mortar ammo came in two main flavors: FRAG-HE and HE

FRAG-HE has a thick steel case, much like an artillery round, and is designed to produce fragments. M795 155mm round has around 25 lbs of explosive filler.

HE has a thin steel shell and functions through blast effect. The 160mm mortar round has about 70 lbs of explosive filler. Mortars can throw more explosive, being a low pressure cannon. The case need not be so thick.

Now, 70 lbs of explosive is quite a bit. Target effects of a near miss include knocking the vehicle on its side; stripping hatch/cupola, externally mounted weapons, sights, and comms; blunt force trauma to crew (from banging into steel when the vehicle is knocked about); spalling of the armor (spall liners generally protect crew, but not automotive components, like the engine); and external automotive damage (broken track, suspension damage, side skirts warped and interfering with track, etc)

Even without seeing the numbers for this example, I'd expect broken tanks.

Saw a pic of a Leo 2A4 hit by Syrian arty (likely 152mm) on the turret roof. Tank did not catch fire and all crew survived, bit it needs the turret completely replaced. Turret crew was wounded by spall. Driver unhurt. Turret roof caved in a goodly bit.