Re-Vamping Someone Elses Scenario

[butch4343]

Folks,

I wondered if there was any established proccess for "re-vamping" older scenarios belonging to others? Is it the case of trying to approach the scenario author, if they are still around? The reason I ask is I have found someones scenario and wanted to use it as the basis for an updated scenario utilising some of the new functions that Command now has (Cargo/Aircraft Damage ect). Naturally the original author would get credit for the scenario ect as well.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Butch

[LMychajluk]

I can't speak for everyone, but if I had created a scenario that I then posted to the community (and to be clear, I have NOT), my feeling would be that it is basically 'public domain', to be used / modified as the community would see fit. If it's an older scenario that someone wants to expand on and 're-publish', I would be perfectly OK with that provided that the updater made an effort to contact me (in case I had plans on updating it myself), and crediting me for the original scenario in the update.

Building scenarios in CMANO and making them available to the community is participating in the community, not any type of money making enterprise. As such, I would welcome the collaboration to improve on something everyone in the community could enjoy. Otherwise, one could build scenarios and try to offer a licensed version for sale through Matrix.

When re-published, I would also rename it (v.2.0, etc...), and include in the designer notes the key changes made, so that the original wouldn't be overwritten in the Community Pack, etc...

[Gunner98]

I don't think this has been really discussed much. A bit of a grey area and what follows is simply my opinion, I cannot speak for others or the Devs.

I think as a minimum you should try and contact the originator, s/he may want to do the modification you suggest or perhaps give or not give their approval. If the response is negative I'd drop the idea right there out of respect for the originators desires. Otherwise, and I think in most cases things can be worked out.

In the case where you cannot find the author I think if you do the mods and post the scenario with due credit to the originator you should be fine. I've done this myself in one case, with one of Feltan's scenarios.

A good question and one worth discussing as it has gone very wrong with other games. We've got a great community and should work at keeping it that way.

B

[Whicker]

I was wondering the same thing, and was going to redo Feltans Havana Daydreaming - taking his premise for the location/geo politics/timeline and then redoing many of the units involved. I was going to give full credit to him, make it clear what I did, and then give it a similar name - Havena Bad Dream or Havana Nightmare.

I have not done it yet, I came across a post somewhere about someone a little unhappy about someone reusing some lua code which I thought was a bit odd, sort of turned me off.

I still plan to do it, more feedback on what people think would be helpful.

For the record, I have no problem with anyone taking anything (lua or scen) that I may share and doing anything they want with it.

[Randomizer]

Speaking only for my self I would consider re-writing somebody's scenarios for public consumption and without their permission as being basic intellectual property theft. Certainly editing the files as desired for personal use is fine, I too tinkered with Feltan's superb "Under African Skies" but would never considering sharing those files and did not download the updated versions on principal. Scenario authors can always include a rider regarding third-party uploads of their work but few bother but I would suggest that there is an implied (if not legal) copyright issue here.

There is precedent in the freeware flight simulation community where it is generally considered a pretty rotten thing to do to edit somebody else's work and upload it using your own name even when credit to the creator is given. Unless of course the original author gives his/her blessing. I seem to recall prolific scenario author and CMANO developer MikmykWS as issuing a blanket refusal of permission to convert his extensive H3 scenario collection to CMANO and this is little different than third-party rewriting scenarios within CMANO.

That said, if one could write a new scenname.ini file that makes the changes that you want to share, this may be an ethical approach. The scenario Delta SBR file system seems like a pretty powerful tool but I have no idea if it can be used to add new functionality to modify an older scenario. Perhaps those wishing to exploit other's work might experiment with this approach, which again is similar to that which is common and accepted to edit freeware in the flightsim world. Typically when people upload mods for games, they only provide the mod so that the user actually edits the original.

People will do as they will and while I consider rewriting other's work as IP theft, your mileage may vary.

-C

[Rosseau]

The issue is obviously "re-publishing" it. Due to the ease of use of the in-game editor, I have yet to play a scenario I haven't fiddled with for my own enjoyment, or somehow ruined! But personally, I would never mess with someone's else's hard work and then upload it. In the (slowly dying) journalism world where I work, it's called plagiarism.

[hasler]

If I remember reading the EULA properly no scenario creator owns the rights to anything. All content created and posted on the forum or derivative from the game is the property of the Publisher. With that general blanket statement out of the way the next thing is there is no viable copyright action at play for nonprofit mods. Even if the mod creator illegally (matrix might have a huge issue with you) registered the scenario with the copyright office there would still be no cause of action because damages could not be proven. Even then the thought of any action ignores fair use and its treatment of dirivative works.

Now to the point on plagerism every mod creator is guilty of plagiarism. Every reused code or template without citation is either plagerism or self-plagerism.
With that little legal rant out of the way, the flight sim community is worse and toxic for the fights around this crap. Several mods abandoned in an early working state with bans given out to anyone who would take up the mantel to finish or improve the mod for the good of the community has had an overall negative effect. For what, so someone can have bragging rights for their free work that itself is a violation of the copyrights belonging to Grumman/lockeed/general dynamics etc.

The purpose of making community scenarios should be to improve the game for the community. So I will ask a general question here, why would any mod creator want to stop the continued improvement of their scenarios? There is no profit, no gain, the only effect is leaving otherwise good scenarios old and disused, and leaving the community a worse place.

[Randomizer]

From the Matrix terms of use. The FAQ is silent on any copyright on uploaded files.

Matrix Games Ltd ("MG") authorises you to view and download the materials at this Web site ("Site") only for your personal, non-commercial use, provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original materials on any copies of the materials. You may not modify the materials at this Site in any way or reproduce or publicly display, perform, or distribute or otherwise use them for any public or commercial purpose.

This would seem to protect scenario authors from IP theft but then I'm not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. I will say that nobody has permission to upload their own versions of my Community scenarios and also expect that there are people who refuse to respect this.

-C

[butch4343]

Folks,


Firstly thank you for all your responses I appreciate all your opinions.

For what its worth I should anyone want to improve, change or modify anything in any scens I have made public, feel free, a wee acknowledgement somewhere would be nice , however its not essential the proviso is no one is doing it for commercial purposes.

I wanted to ask the question:

In the case of historical scenarios lets take the H3 airfield attack example, if I create my own scenario, at what point does it cross over from being mines to being a copy of someone else's? Because ultimately, the Time/Date , aircraft used, targets, weapons loads will be the same because both scenarios would be following a historical precident?

Similarly in a hypthetical scenario, say a 2020 Falklands War if someone else has already created a similar what if how would you make mines mines and not simply a copy, there will be minor diffrences perhaps in the events ect but essentially the ORBATs will be pretty similar, the starting points for the RN TF would be the same because good tactics would dictate that.

I do appreciate your thoughts and answers on this, I want to be a decent member of the community not step on anyone's toes and I am genereally interested in this.


Kind Regards

Butch

[Randomizer]

I would argue that scenarios recreating historical events will always be similar and provided you start building yours from scratch there should be no legitimate complaints from people who have already covered the chosen subject. CMANO's event engine, logistics routines and Lua scripting add so much depth to any incidents modelled in H3 that presumably they would share only a date and time so it would seem that the argument above probably applies. Without further information, my recommendation would be to go for it.

For example, can we really have too many Falklands War variants?

Each scenario author is likely to bring something unique to the situation and that benefits us all. See the wealth of similar but different takes on NATO-Warsaw Pact wars that never happened that so enrich our community scenario pack (now at Version 39!).

-C

[hasler]

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

From the Matrix terms of use. The FAQ is silent on any copyright on uploaded files.

Matrix Games Ltd ("MG") authorises you to view and download the materials at this Web site ("Site") only for your personal, non-commercial use, provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original materials on any copies of the materials. You may not modify the materials at this Site in any way or reproduce or publicly display, perform, or distribute or otherwise use them for any public or commercial purpose.

This would seem to protect scenario authors from IP theft but then I'm not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. I will say that nobody has permission to upload their own versions of my Community scenarios and also expect that there are people who refuse to respect this.

-C

Somebody did not read the Eula. Here are the appropriate sections that say matrix owns your scenarios when you post them.

2.1.3. “Product(s)” means any version of the PROPERTY sold or LICENSED and or incorporating any element of the PROPERTY, the computer software code, and or other LICENSED materials, as set out herein, including patches, upgrades and additional content relating to the PROPERTY.

3.8. All updates, patches, modifications, or changes to the PRODUCT or SERVICES become PUBLISHER PROPERTY and are subject to the LICENSE.

8.1 Content on PUBLISHER SERVICES includes software, technology, text, forum posts, chat, profiles, widgets, messages, links, emails, music, sound, graphics, pictures, video, code, and all audio visual or other material appearing on, or emanating to and or from PUBLISHER, and includes the design and appearance of our websites. Content also includes user-generated Content (“UGC”). UGC includes but is not limited to Account personas, forum posts, profile content and any other content contributed by users to PUBLISHER Services. The PRODUCT may contain an Editor that assists users to create new assets, modify existing assets or files or create custom levels, scenarios, or other materials for use solely in connection with the existing PRODUCT.

8.2. Whether or not an Editor has been supplied by PUBLISHER, users are not permitted to use, or allow third parties to use, such Editor and or any materials created for any commercial purposes whatsoever, without the express written permission of PUBLISHER. Any person so doing is committing an offense and or a copyright violation and may be subject to appropriate civil, or criminal action

In a nutshell, especially when read as a whole, you do not own any intellectual rights to your scenario. Everything you create, without express permission otherwise, cannot be claimed or marketed by you. Doing so is a violation of Matrix and warfare sims copyrights. This is standard across almost all games, and was a major point of contention that the Devs had to address in the Battletech forms a year ago. If you are modding/scenario creating on someone else IP it is their property.

On a side note you are misinterpreting the section you quoted. The line, "provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original materials on any copies of the materials" does not mean you own the copyright. It means that if the object has been copyrighted you must retain the copyright on the material. The whole passage is also overboard in its meaning, as even the quote function is a violation of that term. It also ignores uses that are protected by at least US law.

Now once again, I say what is the purpose of creating a scenario? It should be for the betterment of the community. But often I have found, especially in the flight sim crowd, it is an ego trip. So If a scenario is being created as an ego trip, please denote clearly so I can avoid everything from that creator.

[Rory Noonan]

I'm definitely not an expert on the legal side of things, but I've had a little experience in the practical aspects of this. I would be very surprised to see something like a scenario re-vamp end up in the legal sphere in any event; your average scenario author makes no financial gain and expanding or revising content of other designers would be extremely unlikely to cause them any material damage.

However; it seems the spirit of the thread is about etiquette and protocol. With rare exception the C:MANO scenario design community is a collegial and cooperative one, and I expect most designers would have no issue with revising or expanding on their previous work once it gets to a certain age.

I think the best practice is to get permission from the initial author via email; if they give approval then that's all you need. Where the scenario is more than, say, 12 months old and you can't get hold of the author I'd think it appropriate to post a thread (or even better a new reply to an existing release thread) in the Mods and Scenarios sub-forum stating your intention--that way if anyone takes issue you can sort it out before devoting time to the scenario.

Something I think that is important though is if the original designer doesn't give their approval, or revokes it at any time, we need to respect that. Nothing knocks the fun out of scenario design like a dispute over ownership!

[BeirutDude]

This has happened with scenarios I have developed for TOAW and other older games. My opinion has always been if you ask, have at it. I will admit I did have someone change one without asking and yeah I was a bit torqued but as someone else said, once you put it out there it is in the public domain. Heck in some games they stipulate that any content you produce belongs to the developer anyway.

[magi]

interesting discussion......

[butch4343]

Folks

Thanks for all your replies, as always you have given me good advice and food for thought.

Regards

Butch

[HalfLifeExpert]

ORIGINAL: butch4343

Folks,

I wondered if there was any established proccess for "re-vamping" older scenarios belonging to others? Is it the case of trying to approach the scenario author, if they are still around? The reason I ask is I have found someones scenario and wanted to use it as the basis for an updated scenario utilising some of the new functions that Command now has (Cargo/Aircraft Damage ect). Naturally the original author would get credit for the scenario ect as well.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

Butch

There is no process that I am aware of, but I'm sure it's fine as long as you ask permission of the original author if possible, and if you are unable to contact them, the next best thing would be making it very clear in the forum post and the scenario description who the original author was and that you revamped it.

That sounds best to me. I've even got one scenario that I made but haven't touched in a long time, it's not that good as it was my first attempt, but if anyone were willing to take it over and re-vamp it to make it much more playable, I would be fine with it, so long as I was clearly given credit for building the original scenario.

[mavfin]

Just remember that there is some history involving this exact kind of thing, from before CMANO. Probably need to follow that up before you inadvertently step on the CMANO team's toes with this.

Basically, if you don't know *why* the DB is not editable by the users, you should find out before continuing on. I would suspect they might think the same way about changing someone else's work in the scenario field and then re-uploading it into Steam Workshop.

I'm not going to say whether it's the right or the wrong way to look at it. It's not my IP. For this product, it is just the way it is, unless someone definitively says differently.

[BeirutDude]

mavfin, not sure I understand your response. If I'm reading the tea leaves right the question was about a scenario, not the Database, am I missing something?

[Rory Noonan]

The history mavfin refers to is kind of relevant here, in that things can get very sour when people don't act in good faith. The posts above outline a pretty good set of guidelines to avoid any issues:
1. Communicate with the original author if possible and get their permission
2. Make it clear that your work is based on the work of the original author
3. If at any time the original author withdraws consent then pull the scenario, no questions asked

I have dealt with this situation personally and while it sucks to put a lot of work into something and then have to take it down due to a change of heart, at the end of the day that's the risk you take when building on the work of others and it's not worth getting into a stoush with anyone over a CMANO scenario.

[michaelm75au]

Not sure if this or isn't there, but there should be an overall set of the conditions (simple straight forward end user) relating to the scenarios in the Community Pack.
If the designer doesn't like those conditions, then he is free to keep the scenario out of the CP, or else some sort of exclusion statement should be included in the CP.
One thing I hate about modern times is all the fine print/red tape/'complain/sue at the drop of a pin' stuff that seems to abound just because people just don't want to get along or abide by simple courtesy/understanding.