I'm thinking of placing Kesselring into a ground command position and I'm wondering how badly that might effect the performance of the Luftwaffe 2 from German T1 or shortly there after and onwards later down the track following that.
Kesselring has an average rating as an Air leader of 8.2, while the next best 3 are von Richthofen 7.7, Loehr 7.2, & von Greim 7.0, while Kesselring has one extra point of Morale at 9 over each of these other 3 at 8, with the same Air combat leaders value as Richthofen at 8 but one & two points better than the other two guys respectively.
So some questions:
a) If it matters much I would consider replacing Keller at Luftflotte 1 with Richthofen to support AGN against Leningrad and then Moscow, so does it matter much or is it best to just leave those two Generals where they are, especially Richthofen in lower more direct command of Stukas in Flieger Korps VIII?
b) I would probably place von Greim in at Luftflotte 2 HQ command position by the looks of it, or is he better off staying at Flieger Korps V and instead perhaps choosing either Loerzer or may be Keller or else promoting Pflugbeil are any of those a good enough idea for Heeresgruppe Mitte over the long haul or not?
c) Just how important to all forms of air combats & bombings is one to two points more increase of Morale & Air Leaders skill points at Luftflotte commander level positions to the actual combat effectiveness of subordinated fighters & bombers really?
d) How important is the difference in Admin skill rating between Kesselring and von Greim, K is 7 while v G is 6 as are some others in consideration, I understand Admin improves or modifies aircraft repairs & supplies but how important is just one point overall, especially if you place your airbases on functioning rail line hexes or within railhead distance range?
How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21, elmo3
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
On the general point about do air ratings matter - I certainly have noticed the air combat rating and the admin rating do. Air combat ratings do give better bombing results which I can see from manually doing the missions. I assume they do make a difference from the other auto missions as well but never followed them closely enough to know. And better admin ratings do lead to fewer losses in the logistics phase.
On the further point of would one point of ratings difference be meaningful - the answer would have to depend on how you play the air war. If you just play the ground war and leave the air force to auto to do their own thing when they can then it is probably not worth spending points to make the difference. If you spend a long time doing many air missions yourself it will. It is quality multiplied by quantity - one point difference multiplied by many air missions matters a lot, multiplied over a few not very much. And similarly if you end your turn with a lot of damaged or reserved aircraft the admin rating makes a big difference and you will see it in the loses for your logistics phase - if you do not then it will not.
Before changing commanders between Luftflottes and Flieger Korps have you instead considered reassigning airbases to the HQs of your best commanders instead. It should be cheaper points wise. No matter which air HQ they are in Germans will support any Axis army - so they do not have to be in Luftflotte 1 to support AGN. You can have up to sixteen airbases in one Luftlotte and eight in one Flieger Korps - so you could fit your 24 airbases into which ever two Luftlotte have the best commanders. Or three FLieger Korps with best commanders. Or a bit of both. Kesselring could be the commander, say, for all the airforce helping in BOTH Moscow and Leningrad.
On Kesselring, assuming he starts with Field Marshal Rank, remember he cannot command a ground corps or flieger corps. If you assign airbases or ground units directly to the Luftflotte or ground HQ they are in this will not matter (much). But if they are second in the chain of command then they start to have large range penalties. For a second level command (typically army/Luftflotte after corps/flieger korps) there will only be no range penalty if the HQ is one hex away - more than three hexes away and whatever ratings you have pretty much do not matter any more. This does not apply to morale - so if you want Kesselring in a high command for his morale rating only fine. But if you are looking for their other ratings to be effective ask yourself how often are your ground units going to be just one hex away. On the other hand very often airbases will be clustered together so that Kesselring can be near nearly all of them.
Similarly remember other air commanders at the Flieger Korps level may not have the rank to command a Luftlotte - unless you pay a lot of points to give them an early promotion. They also risk losing their ratings from an early promotion. And similarly if you make Richtofen second in the chain of command then all of his ratings start to get range penalties which they would not do in the first level.
The best ratings for eight airbases can be had by having all eight under Richtofen in FKVIII, which in turn is under Kesselring in the second level of command. You can then move FKVIII around to wherever it is needed anywhere on the map every turn - and keep almost all of your aircraft in there? Whether there is then any need to have Kesselring in the second level command when you already have Richtofen in the first level command then becomes more debateable.
On the further point of would one point of ratings difference be meaningful - the answer would have to depend on how you play the air war. If you just play the ground war and leave the air force to auto to do their own thing when they can then it is probably not worth spending points to make the difference. If you spend a long time doing many air missions yourself it will. It is quality multiplied by quantity - one point difference multiplied by many air missions matters a lot, multiplied over a few not very much. And similarly if you end your turn with a lot of damaged or reserved aircraft the admin rating makes a big difference and you will see it in the loses for your logistics phase - if you do not then it will not.
Before changing commanders between Luftflottes and Flieger Korps have you instead considered reassigning airbases to the HQs of your best commanders instead. It should be cheaper points wise. No matter which air HQ they are in Germans will support any Axis army - so they do not have to be in Luftflotte 1 to support AGN. You can have up to sixteen airbases in one Luftlotte and eight in one Flieger Korps - so you could fit your 24 airbases into which ever two Luftlotte have the best commanders. Or three FLieger Korps with best commanders. Or a bit of both. Kesselring could be the commander, say, for all the airforce helping in BOTH Moscow and Leningrad.
On Kesselring, assuming he starts with Field Marshal Rank, remember he cannot command a ground corps or flieger corps. If you assign airbases or ground units directly to the Luftflotte or ground HQ they are in this will not matter (much). But if they are second in the chain of command then they start to have large range penalties. For a second level command (typically army/Luftflotte after corps/flieger korps) there will only be no range penalty if the HQ is one hex away - more than three hexes away and whatever ratings you have pretty much do not matter any more. This does not apply to morale - so if you want Kesselring in a high command for his morale rating only fine. But if you are looking for their other ratings to be effective ask yourself how often are your ground units going to be just one hex away. On the other hand very often airbases will be clustered together so that Kesselring can be near nearly all of them.
Similarly remember other air commanders at the Flieger Korps level may not have the rank to command a Luftlotte - unless you pay a lot of points to give them an early promotion. They also risk losing their ratings from an early promotion. And similarly if you make Richtofen second in the chain of command then all of his ratings start to get range penalties which they would not do in the first level.
The best ratings for eight airbases can be had by having all eight under Richtofen in FKVIII, which in turn is under Kesselring in the second level of command. You can then move FKVIII around to wherever it is needed anywhere on the map every turn - and keep almost all of your aircraft in there? Whether there is then any need to have Kesselring in the second level command when you already have Richtofen in the first level command then becomes more debateable.
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
Hmmm, Telemecus some of this doesn't match my understanding with regards to what you are saying if 'typical' army second level command only range one to 3 hexes for the other skills bar Morale, unless what you mean relates only to the Luftflotte secend level command to Fleigerkorps or then why is Jodl so universally hated as an automatic replacement of von Kluge at 4th Armee?
I could see you meaning Airbases needing to be within one to 3 hexes range of the Luftflotte HQ to receive the commanders benefits other than just Morale but only if either directly subordinated to it or if its own Fliegerkorps HQ is too far away from the base itself, is this your reasoning for your 1-3 range usefulness advice?
There are not too many Air HQs to have to worry about and only a few Air Leader Generals to play with as the Germans, most of whom are good to excellent. So saving AP as much as possible might be the best aim with them, while also having them positioned optimum enough shouldn't be too hard. Handling the airbases might be more important... going by your other suggestions, thanks.
I am not thinking about ensuring that the Luftflotte groups and Fliegerkorps follow their respecting Army groups, I am more focused upon having them bring their groups of Airbases up along with their Army groups to keep the actual planes in range of the advanced combat, providing fighter air cover with MEs with 20 hex ranges and bombing support with Stukas with ranges of only 11.
So far I'll take it as a answer from you Telemecus for question a) best then to leave Keller and Richthofen in their starting respective commands saving the AP. I kind of thought so but I thought I ought to ask anyway.
b) I'm still unsure...
c) Incrementally, but add up as quality upon quantity.
d) Similarly, but we are talking about just one point here of Admin difference dropping from Kesselring to von Greim, so not really that much if it was 3 skill points then it might matter a whole deal. And as Telemecus suggests it might be better to just transfer the airbases or planes other groups with better skills of Admin to help with repairs instead.
Final take away for me is that I can place Kesselring in a ground command role with only small malus to my Luftwaffe and know to handle that.
I could see you meaning Airbases needing to be within one to 3 hexes range of the Luftflotte HQ to receive the commanders benefits other than just Morale but only if either directly subordinated to it or if its own Fliegerkorps HQ is too far away from the base itself, is this your reasoning for your 1-3 range usefulness advice?
There are not too many Air HQs to have to worry about and only a few Air Leader Generals to play with as the Germans, most of whom are good to excellent. So saving AP as much as possible might be the best aim with them, while also having them positioned optimum enough shouldn't be too hard. Handling the airbases might be more important... going by your other suggestions, thanks.
I am not thinking about ensuring that the Luftflotte groups and Fliegerkorps follow their respecting Army groups, I am more focused upon having them bring their groups of Airbases up along with their Army groups to keep the actual planes in range of the advanced combat, providing fighter air cover with MEs with 20 hex ranges and bombing support with Stukas with ranges of only 11.
So far I'll take it as a answer from you Telemecus for question a) best then to leave Keller and Richthofen in their starting respective commands saving the AP. I kind of thought so but I thought I ought to ask anyway.
b) I'm still unsure...
c) Incrementally, but add up as quality upon quantity.
d) Similarly, but we are talking about just one point here of Admin difference dropping from Kesselring to von Greim, so not really that much if it was 3 skill points then it might matter a whole deal. And as Telemecus suggests it might be better to just transfer the airbases or planes other groups with better skills of Admin to help with repairs instead.
Final take away for me is that I can place Kesselring in a ground command role with only small malus to my Luftwaffe and know to handle that.
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
ORIGINAL: Saulust
Hmmm, Telemecus some of this doesn't match my understanding with regards to what you are saying if 'typical' army second level command only range one to 3 hexes for the other skills bar Morale, unless what you mean relates only to the Luftflotte secend level command to Fleigerkorps or then why is Jodl so universally hated as an automatic replacement of von Kluge at 4th Armee?
I am afraid correct and checked for ground commands
To be precise the range penalties are
1st level - none for any distance
2nd level - none for up to 1 hex, one for 2 or 3 hexes, two for 3 or 4 hexes, etc
3rd level - none for up to 2 hexes, one for 3 4 or 5 hexes, two for 6 7 or 8 hexes, etc
4th level - none for up to 3 hexes, one for 4 5 6 or 7 hexes, etc
etc
Basically once you are more than a few hexes away from a higher level HQ the penalties kick in making the ratings largely ineffective when considered for any particular unit. The only compensation for higher commands is that the little they contribute applies to many more units.
You can keep moving your army HQs to always be one hex away from any combats in your turn to not have a range penalty then - but there can be large logistical costs to doing that.
I have gone over the maths with Jodl - and typically players change their mind when I do. However the real answer for Jodl is get him into an army group command or even OKH as quickly as possible so that he does not become an army commander.
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
Umm, I am not exactly understanding what the range penalty value is itself you are talking about as 2nd level one for 2-3 hexes, two for 3-4 etc... [&:]
Is that a whole skill point then 2 etc in the others than Morale or a percentage or what?
On Jodl it only happens once when everyone replaces Halder at OKH with von Kluge from 4th Armee, I get Gothard Henrici from XLIII Korps instead. [;)]
Is that a whole skill point then 2 etc in the others than Morale or a percentage or what?
On Jodl it only happens once when everyone replaces Halder at OKH with von Kluge from 4th Armee, I get Gothard Henrici from XLIII Korps instead. [;)]
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
ORIGINAL: Saulust
Umm, I am not exactly understanding what the range penalty value is itself you are talking about as 2nd level one for 2-3 hexes, two for 3-4 etc... [&:]
Is that a whole skill point then 2 etc in the others than Morale or a percentage or what?
On Jodl it only happens once when everyone replaces Halder at OKH with von Kluge from 4th Armee, I get Gothard Henrici from XLIII Korps instead. [;)]
High level commands get their ratings probabilities divided by a number so that second level command ratings are halved, and so on. The range penalty is added to that dividing number. The exact maths are in the manual.
However as a linear approximation in mid range cases each range penalty is about equal to an equivalent loss in ratings. So a commander with a 6 rating and a range penalty of 2 should have about the same chance of passing a ratings check as a commander with a 4 rating and no range penalty. Does that help? [:)]
Wargamers Discord https://discord.gg/U6DcDxT
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
Helps a bit thanks, I'll have to consult the manual minutia fully, thanks for the invite. [8D]
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
Been playing just a little bit and yeah something I didn't know about getting Army HQs closer to their Corps Divisions, however it only seems to be a minor increase really, and getting the them between 4-5, 2-3, & then just one hex away increases incrementally the Divisions CV as Army HQ gets closer, so thanks for that good to know. Obviously works for airbases too with Luftflotte HQs, I'll have to try to place those closer to my important bases for improved combat and Admin benefits too, thanks again.
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SparkleyTits
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RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
If you move a German army, front and OKH further away from units under it's eventual command then check the units supply details you will see a change in the % of ratings.
It'll look like
Morale 73.2%
Initiative 67.0%
Admin 91.4%
Mech 73.8%
Infantry 67.5%
These ratings will slightly lower the further away the 2nd, 3rd, 4th commands are etc
It'll look like
Morale 73.2%
Initiative 67.0%
Admin 91.4%
Mech 73.8%
Infantry 67.5%
These ratings will slightly lower the further away the 2nd, 3rd, 4th commands are etc
RE: How important are Luftwaffe commander skill rates?
ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits
If you move a German army, front and OKH further away from units under it's eventual command then check the units supply details you will see a change in the % of ratings.
[X(]
OK yeah I did that and saw that it looked like that thanks, both for a ground unit and for an Airbase when I moved the Luftflotte HQ 50ish Hexes away, wow nice to know, cheers.