Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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modrow
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by modrow »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I haven't crossed the Rubicon, merely parlayed across it. Plus my proconsulship remains until March.

Only if the Senate willingly grants me the position of Dictator for life might I even contemplate your request.[:)]

Alfred

Well, that analogy makes you not only a member but a pinnacle of the populares, favouring the cause of the plebs (players), whereas the point you make is rather an optimates one, defending the mos maiorum and the patricians (developers), is it not? [:)]

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

I have never understood the need for such subterfuge regarding the game mechanics. Those asking for details regarding game mechanics aren't looking to pilfer the source code, we just want to understand the rules the game operates under. It's compounded by the fact that AE doesn't exactly give great feedback regarding the outcomes it generates in the combat reports. It's the devs ball, and they can share it if they want; this is fine with me.

I think that AE is the only game of this genre where so much of the mechanics are simply a grey area known to the devs and their coterie. I don't want to read the source code, I'd just like to have an informed understanding of, say, what causes LCU artillery devices to fire at ships in a bombardment or amphib TF.


Here is why...my two cents...if they did expose the algorithm than it would relatively simple for players catch combat results that couldn't happen by said algorithm.

Thus, by keeping it secret the catch-all phrase,"Fog of War" is their get out of jail card.

[:D]
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

I have never understood the need for such subterfuge regarding the game mechanics. Those asking for details regarding game mechanics aren't looking to pilfer the source code, we just want to understand the rules the game operates under. It's compounded by the fact that AE doesn't exactly give great feedback regarding the outcomes it generates in the combat reports. It's the devs ball, and they can share it if they want; this is fine with me.

I think that AE is the only game of this genre where so much of the mechanics are simply a grey area known to the devs and their coterie. I don't want to read the source code, I'd just like to have an informed understanding of, say, what causes LCU artillery devices to fire at ships in a bombardment or amphib TF.



Alfred


Commenting on #5 only...a laughable statement.

Sub commanders NEVER give in their reports the speed and direction of the ships they engage or even see, yet that was standard operating procedure for US sub commanders to report to Pearl.

Standard Operating Procedure.


Then at midnight of each night US subs gave Fox reports on their daily movements and encounters.


Sorry, no sale on #5.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

...

To me, it seems that if you want to focus on a particular airframe for use as a Kamikaze, you need to focus on one of the three categories and train your pilots.

My initial thoughts are to either focus on maneuverability or durability for Kamikazes because I'm not all that excited in using my late war fighters as Kamikazes.

Note that the Ki-115b and Toka are tied for #18 in the speed category.

What to you all think?


I am focusing on a mixture of airframes so that I get a force with good performances in Speed, Maneuverability and Durability. And more importantly NUMBERS.

...NUMBERS... So that "Once Again into the Breach" echoes!

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: modrow

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I haven't crossed the Rubicon, merely parlayed across it. Plus my proconsulship remains until March.

Only if the Senate willingly grants me the position of Dictator for life might I even contemplate your request.[:)]

Alfred

Well, that analogy makes you not only a member but a pinnacle of the populares, favouring the cause of the plebs (players), whereas the point you make is rather an optimates one, defending the mos maiorum and the patricians (developers), is it not? [:)]

Hartwig

And therein you capture perfectly the fundamental dilemma starting with the Gracchi which destroyed the Republic.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



I have never understood the need for such subterfuge regarding the game mechanics. Those asking for details regarding game mechanics aren't looking to pilfer the source code, we just want to understand the rules the game operates under. It's compounded by the fact that AE doesn't exactly give great feedback regarding the outcomes it generates in the combat reports. It's the devs ball, and they can share it if they want; this is fine with me.

I think that AE is the only game of this genre where so much of the mechanics are simply a grey area known to the devs and their coterie. I don't want to read the source code, I'd just like to have an informed understanding of, say, what causes LCU artillery devices to fire at ships in a bombardment or amphib TF.



Alfred


Commenting on #5 only...a laughable statement.

Sub commanders NEVER give in their reports the speed and direction of the ships they engage or even see, yet that was standard operating procedure for US sub commanders to report to Pearl.

Standard Operating Procedure.


Then at midnight of each night US subs gave Fox reports on their daily movements and encounters.


Sorry, no sale on #5.

The word abstraction is obviously not found in your dictionary.

1. In AE the Allied player is Nimitz (or his equivalent in each theatre). Everything is then abstracted down from there. It is standard operating procedure for a strategic/operational wargame. You are not the sub commander. Nor the officer the sub commander reports to who is the person, not Nimitz, who gets to read those reports and act upon them.

2. The game engine has its own abstracted intel module. Such information you claim is not provided is in fact provided in abstract form as part of the MDL. It is what allows a sub to "react" in "real time" following an enemy TF.

3. You, as the player (ie Nimitz), can't act on that information anyway so what is the point of you (ie Nimitz) having it. The on the spot sub commander has it and in game terms that information is only relevant to the on the spot sub commander. What you want is more chrome with absolutely zero game utility but exponentially increasing demands on computer hardware and human frustration.

4. So many things abstracted into the game which IRL would generate a report usually only read and acted upon by someone below Nimitz. To name only a few. Shortage of "supply" (a huge abstraction in its own right as it includes such myriad things like water, food, ammo, building materials etc) at base X, please send supply. Aye Cap'n, shes running low on fuel, better request a fuel transfer from the TF flagship else the TF will be dead in the water. You don't get that report either but miraculously the abstraction allows for underway fuel transfer. Here's another one, you don't get a report breaking down the cause of device disablement. How many men are disabled due to (a) malaria, (b) STD, (c) combat injuries, (d) work accidents etc. Nor are you told their estimated convalescence period.

5. So many other exemplars could be provided and none of them relevant in this particular game engine with its built in abstractions. What you do get is more relevant and accurate information which can be acted upon by Nimitz. Combat Reports provide accurate details on enemy LCU losses. Back in the real world unless you are able to capture the ground held by the enemy, you can't determine with any degree of accuracy how many enemy troops were killed in that last attack (and not all enemy killed are found on the captured battleground). Yet in AE the majority of land attacks result in no advance but the CR still lists how many enemy troops were killed, how many artillery guns (often way back behind the front line anyway) were destroyed, and so on. IRL it is never possible to accurate determine enemy non fatal casualties even if the enemy ground is ceased. You can count the number of POWs captured but you can't count how many injured withdrew with the rest of the enemy able bodied. The CR identifies specific enemy air units providing CAP, IRL that information is subject to a much greater degree of uncertainty. Naval CR and combat animation identifies specific enemy ships. Not so easy IRL, particularly enemy subs launching torpedoes whilst submerged.

Alfred
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

I have never understood the need for such subterfuge regarding the game mechanics. Those asking for details regarding game mechanics aren't looking to pilfer the source code, we just want to understand the rules the game operates under. It's compounded by the fact that AE doesn't exactly give great feedback regarding the outcomes it generates in the combat reports. It's the devs ball, and they can share it if they want; this is fine with me.

I think that AE is the only game of this genre where so much of the mechanics are simply a grey area known to the devs and their coterie. I don't want to read the source code, I'd just like to have an informed understanding of, say, what causes LCU artillery devices to fire at ships in a bombardment or amphib TF.


Here is why...my two cents...if they did expose the algorithm than it would relatively simple for players catch combat results that couldn't happen by said algorithm.

Thus, by keeping it secret the catch-all phrase,"Fog of War" is their get out of jail card.

[:D]

Another word which is missing from your dictionary.

Randoms.

The number generated by die rolls. What allows for something to not happen even though all the other thresholds built into the algorithm have been met. What allows for the capture in a computer game, which otherwise would be merely a spread sheet with rigid predetermined outcomes, of that old military axiom that "no plan survives contact with the enemy".

If you really think "Fog of War" is the devs get out of jail card, then play with it toggled OFF. No dev has ever insisted that the game can only be played with it toggled ON. Your call, you do have free will to choose. Rather unfair to blame the devs for the consequences of your own decisions.

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

This is both a naïve and myopic statement. One which you have repeated ad nauseum over the years notwithstanding the rebutals which have been consistently provided.

1. You came to AE from the Paradox universe, in particular from HOI. It beggars belief that you can imply with a straight face that Paradox game manuals, in particular HOI game manuals, provide more details and greater assistance than the AE manual. I can only conclude that you have never bothered to read the Paradox manuals. I have so you can treat the rest of the posters on this forum as fools buut you can't fool me.

I won't defend Paradox, there's a reason why I've not bought any games developed by them since Crusader Kings II. Plus, I've had the AGEOD series of games take over that gaming niche in the past few years.

However, you'll agree with me that they're very transparent in how various modifiers influence combat and other aspects of the game
.
I'm most familiar with HoI 3, and in that, in the case of ground combat, one can easily see the respective numeric influences of various issues. Crossing a river to attack a mountain province, for example, has a series of modifiers that you can look at and make an informed judgement about the risk of making such a move. In AE we don't get that, just the information that river crossings, when opposed, cause a shock attack and disruption. How much disruption? Doesn't say.
2. You obviously have never bothered to read the Paradox forums if again you are implying with a straight face that they provide more details and greater assistance than the AE forum. Paradox devs do not, I repeat, do not participate in their forums. Their developer diaries, which are a relatively recent development, are nothing more than advertisements for their forthcoming games. Paradox forums are totally dependent on the goodwill of fellow players providing the benefit of their experience. In that they are most definitely not better than the AE forum. Furthermore the AE forum, for 5 years after the game release, had regular contributions from many of the devs. Those contributions greatly expanded on the manual's explanation of both game mechanics and rationale for game design decisions. None of that is found in the Paradox forums and was provided for free so for you to consistently dismiss the efforts of the devs to support the game merely shows you to be an ingratiate at best.

What I will say is that the notion of Paradox's developer diaries was a good one in that it outlined game mechanics in a structured way, that you can refer back to as needed. While I more than agree that the level of support from the devs on the AE forums is far superior to that over at Paradox, the fustrating thing is that the comments are scattered across the forum and picking up the various threads can be tedious at best and sisyphean at worst.
3. No AE patch has ever been charged for. there have been 7 official AE patches (which included substantial game updates) plus there are the unofficial beta patches. Paradox incorporates their patches into cosmetic updates which allows them to justify charging their customer base a substantial sum of money to maintain their base game up to date. I have never seen you state that you would be quite happy to have paid money to receive any of those patches and updates. Where in this world, where the average mortal has to be engaged in paid employment in order to meet their living expense, (oh I forget you live in academia although whether that is as an academic or merely as a student has never been made clear), is it expected,, as a right, to receive support and information always in a pro bono capacity. Try to walk in the shoes of the AE devs and imagine how much more additional assistance they could have provided if their participation generated additional revenue post game release.

I've actually been quite impressed with the Paradox model regarding updates/DLC, at least regarding Crusader Kings II. The correct balance between paid content, essential bugfixes and cosmetic trinkets has been on the mark bar a single dubious addition (retinues being locked behind DLC, IIRC).

AE has a steep up-front cost, but in terms of the hours played, one of the best gaming investments I've ever made. Would I be happy to pay for continued updates and patches? Absolutely!

FWIW, I did my undergraduate degree in psychology and finished my MSc in Clinical Psychology last year. I self funded the MSc.

I also don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to have purchased a product and to then receive information and support on the working of that product, especially in the context of software. The fact that support for released software is normally a drain on resources is well known, and even more so in the case of an older game such as AE. It's extremely fustrating to see what's already been done with comparatively little and to see what potentially could be done.
4. No one doubts that you personally lack the skills, but if you could tear yourself away once from thinking about yourself, I can assure you that there are individuals on this planet who would be greatly assisted in reverse engineering the game and creating their own PTO games to compete with AE if the detail you consistently demand, were to be provided. There are also PBEM game security considerations which come into play but you would have to know something about the world outside of your own personal universe in order to appreciate that.

I think if you've a serious commitment to reverse engineering AE and have the requisite knowledge and skills, what information is given or not given won't make the slightest difference.
5. The Combat Reports and the various other relevant game reports/intel provide much more accurate information than a real world commander gets. You want more unrealistic information, turn off Fog of War. Stop complaining if you have Fog of War turned on. Take a course on computer programming to try to gain some understanding as to what some of the practical limitations are.

No, Combat Reports provide much less information than a real world commander gets, especially regarding his own side.

Leaders (-) for example. What unit(s) suffered the penalty? How big was it? What aspect of the role did they fail? Same with supply, what units suffered from low supply, or disruption or fatigue?

Even in losses: a deliberate attack costs 100 squads destroyed, what units are they from?

It's not impossible, one stellar example can be found in AEGOD games and the combat reports they generate, where it's possible to drill down into the report to see how battles went right (or wrong).
6. You yourself in your AARs demonstrate a good grasp of game mechanics. Your play is not hampered by a lack of knowledge of game mechanics. You regularly post to other players AARs detailed posts explaining options based on game mechanics. How is all this possible if the detail of game mechanics has not been provided by the AE devs. Or are you expecting us all to believe that you are only the second person in the history of the world to have been visited by the Holy Spirit, the other being Mary the mother of Jesus whose gift from the Holy Spirit was the foetus of Jesus, whereas in your case the gift was all the detail knowledge of AE game mechanics which the devs allegedly did not provide. One does not have to be Richard Dawkins to not believe that to be the case. Instead your own statement about the lack of knowledge of what causes LCU artillery to fire at ships in bombardment/artillery TFs shows up this nonsense for what it really is for I have provided detailed posts on how it operates, and my posts have drawn upon earlier posts publicly provided by the devs. I have never claimed to have been visited by the Holy Spirit.


The fundamental difference between you and me is that whenever I have been uncertain about some game mechanic I have gone and researched the public resources and invariably found the answer. An answer which ultimately derives from the devs. Faced with the same situation, you don't make the same effort or if you do make the effort you can't be honest enough to admit the answer has ultimately been derived from the devs. For you it is so much easier to just blame the devs, and in doing so you consistently slander them. What is really astonishing is how someone in the academic world can survive with such poor research skills or failure to correctly cite and acknowledge the sources.

We're not as fundamentally different as you might think, to the point that it may make you uncomfortable. I have a research background, I like references. I like to see someone say something, then provide a reference back to the evidence for that statement. That way, someone looking for more information can follow the reference and see for themselves. Trying to do any sort of search for information on the forum is extremely frustrating, the sites native search engine is difficult, and while Google is much easier to manage, it's not ideal for filtering out other Matrix titles with similar subject matters. Two weeks ago I was trying to find information I remember being posted to a specific thread several years back, and even knowing the correct thread still had to result to manually clicking through the thread to find the correct post. It's more than likely it's my inability to make the sites native search engine work optimally, but others have found it clunky as well.

There's also the fact that you've been active on the forums since 2006, with AE being released in 2009. That's a lot of information, posts and interaction that I've missed. You'll have a much better notion of the reliability of sources than I ever will.

I'm not a stupid person; more often than not I'm the idiot in the room, but I have the capacity to learn. If there's the abundance of information on the mechanics of AE actually out there in the forum in enough detail at to help make informed decisions, it's now so difficult to access that it may as well not exist anyways. The FAQ thread remains a glimmer of what could have been if there had been a centralized and structured method to posting info on game mechanics...

In fairness, I should stop blaming the devs; they weren't to know that the information they were disseminating would be so hard to access again nearly ten years down the line.

Anyhow, that's the last I'll say on this topic in Mike's AAR, we've diverted from it enough already. Feel free to take it to PM or elsewhere on the forum Alfred, I genuinely enjoy your contributions and viewpoint.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: rustysi
but my outlook is that they should be gone in favor of the Frank by 7/43

7/43???? Oh, I hope I haven't screwed up here, I won't have the Frank that early. I've got one factory to 30 and another close. The oddball (55 IIRC) is repairing well, but it'll be some time before its finished. The other three R&D I have working I brought in a while later, and they've a way to go. I have the engine bonus to move things along, but... I'm thinking I'll get it the end of '43 beginning '44. Was looking for the George to carry me to that point. I know it may put a bit of a strain on my IJN fighter pilots, but to date I've kept them out of the fight as much as possible. I think I've only one front-line right now in the Solomon's. I've got the Army doing most of the job.
Very achievable, but you need to focus on it. 12x30 RnD will usually do it. And it is very nice to have 6 - 8 groups of Franks operating by Sept '43 when the new Bolts turn up.
Then in Sept/Oct '43 I will put 9x30 RnD on the Frank 'r' model, and build the remaining 3 production factories up to 3x60 or 3x90. That will give me 450 -> 540 /month Frank in mid '44 which is generally what I target for that model.
Frank 'r' is a final model, so it is part of the 3000/mo fighter plan for late '45 and thus there are no real concerns about having 'too many'. the ~500/mo will get increased in '44 to whatever I decide to be my final Frank production run rate: ~600 -> 900 /month.
If I choose the Ki-94 as my 2nd IJA fighter, then lower numbers of Frank r. If I go for the Ki-83 or Ki-201, then likely higher numbers.
I'm just catching up here so sorry to take this back a page.

In my game in Jan/45 I'm making only 350 Franks, but I've continued making other planes because I know they can still be effective. Making 3,000 fighters a month means you're probably also losing that many!! I wouldn't want to plan for that.

Kamis are probably best used interspersed with standard strikes, and with a plan to only use them when there is a clearly vulnerable target you can nearly guarantee will be hit.

There is so much emphasis around building planes here and the cost of that, but I might rather invest in forts that are so high Allied landings on major targets will delay their schedule. If they can't get close, they can't wreck the industry as easily. I've already made the mistake in this late game of not building forts high enough in a few places within the inner 20 hex circle around the Home Islands.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ok, looking at end game engine factories and it ain't pretty. There are 20 factories total. With some 3500 high end fighter engines and maybe 2000 more for any Kamikaze planes you choose to build, that doesn't leave much for anything else. Say 6k engines total, that's an average of 300 per factory. [X(] My engine production total right now (op and R&D) is 2430, less than half. And a lot of them aren't needed for end game planes. Yikes!


One way to make use of the Ha-35 is to continue to build the Nick Ia. (I don't upgrade this to subsequent versions anyway). It's still a decent bomber killer in 45 and you can pay PP to convert the 2E bomber groups to make them FB, thus using the Nicks for training pilots and leaving your fighters free to fight. You will need a lot of pilots! If they're used for training the extra supply isn't a big deal

The Nick is also an excellent kami, with high durability and better speed than the 2E bombers (although the Peggy-T is about as good).

I also keep the Oscar IV airframes going at a good clip. I find their range as escorts and final version with cannons decent in general defence.

No matter what you'll need a lot of the Ha-43 and this will be your biggest engine expense late. Start building them early as RnD factories and bread them around.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hi guys. The dialogue of the past couple of days has been wonderful. Unfortunately, it's going in a direction I'd rather not visit.

We now know that Kamikaze effectiveness is based primarily on Pilot Quality, Air Speed, Maneuverability and Durability. The first has nothing to do with the airframe so I've looked at the remaining 3 to see what airframes might be the most suitable to be used as Kamikazes.

I did something pretty simple to start. There are 164 different Japanese airframes in scenario 1. I looked at the top 30 for each of the 3 categories to see if anything showed up in all of them.

Here are the upper and lower limits for the top 30 in the categories:

Speed: 559-373
Maneuverability: 49-28
Durability: 48-36

There were no airframes that showed up in the top 30 in all 3 categories and only 4 airframes that showed up in the top 30 in 2 of the categories:

Ki-84r: Speed #10, Man #30
Ki-93-Ib: Speed #16, Dur #21
Ki-93-Ia: Speed #17, Dur #22
Ki-102c: Speed #30, Dur #28

Fighters were most common in the speed (late fighters) and maneuverability (early fighters) categories while the 4E flying boats and 2E bombers/transports were primarily in the durability category. No surprises there.

To me, it seems that if you want to focus on a particular airframe for use as a Kamikaze, you need to focus on one of the three categories and train your pilots.

My initial thoughts are to either focus on maneuverability or durability for Kamikazes because I'm not all that excited in using my late war fighters as Kamikazes.

Note that the Ki-115b and Toka are tied for #18 in the speed category.

What to you all think?
I agree with your analysis, but not the conclusion (sorry).

Fighters do make great kami's. The issue for me is simple: I cannot afford to convert fighter groups to kami as I need all of my fighters on ESCORT to get the kami's through the CAP.
Just that simple. So, IJS: Ki-115 plus whatever else I have laying around. IJN convert some of the 2E bomber groups, but not many. They are too useful as night bomber/patrol groups.
IJN bomber: convert all to Grace and keep as DB/TB, not kami. They end up functioning as 30-50% kami anyway, but some do make it home and the hit% is very good.

All just me, and of course this is against the AI.
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

In my game in Jan/45 I'm making only 350 Franks, but I've continued making other planes because I know they can still be effective. Making 3,000 fighters a month means you're probably also losing that many!! I wouldn't want to plan for that.


Agreed.

Two differences which should be kept in mind:
1. I'm playing AI, and the Andy AI has a lot of AC. I gave stock numbers, but in my actual games, the AI has more than double those numbers available. This works out to just about what a player can pull together in Scen 1 if they focus, which most player do.
2. I always plan to take on the Deathstar. That means I am planning to lose +3000 planes at a time, My biggest loss to date was just under 5000. That's one day, not one attack.

And yes, I came out on the wrong side of the rolls on that 5000 plane loss … got some just terrible rolls against the CAP and then a few really nasty ones on the AA. But that is the way is rolls …
I've had other attacks succeed. I've only got to win 2 to cripple the allied Death Star to the point it isn't the Death Star anymore.
That still leaves the overwhelming force of the SOV …

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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I haven't crossed the Rubicon, merely parlayed across it. Plus my proconsulship remains until March.

Only if the Senate willingly grants me the position of Dictator for life might I even contemplate your request.[:)]

Alfred

I appreciate this reference. We need more Roman war references (any of them) and fewer Civil War references in these parts [;)]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

I have never understood the need for such subterfuge regarding the game mechanics. Those asking for details regarding game mechanics aren't looking to pilfer the source code, we just want to understand the rules the game operates under. It's compounded by the fact that AE doesn't exactly give great feedback regarding the outcomes it generates in the combat reports. It's the devs ball, and they can share it if they want; this is fine with me.

I think that AE is the only game of this genre where so much of the mechanics are simply a grey area known to the devs and their coterie. I don't want to read the source code, I'd just like to have an informed understanding of, say, what causes LCU artillery devices to fire at ships in a bombardment or amphib TF.
The devs commented on the reason: they don't want the game experience diminished by players planning their moves based on gaming the game's formulas.

While I agree in principle, I also think they (in general) erred too far towards secrecy and not enough towards disclosure. This is one instance where they could just say "bombs carried by kamikazes are calculated into damage" or "maximum load of kamikaze planes, which takes into account all the ordnance that could be strapped on and all the fuel that could still be on the plane, affects damage calculations."

That's literally all they'd have to say. They don't need to get into the details. We need a "what" not a "how much."
Zorch
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I haven't crossed the Rubicon, merely parlayed across it. Plus my proconsulship remains until March.

Only if the Senate willingly grants me the position of Dictator for life might I even contemplate your request.[:)]

Alfred

I appreciate this reference. We need more Roman war references (any of them) and fewer Civil War references in these parts [;)]
I will hurl someone from the Tarpeian Rock if we don't have a turn soon. [8|]
Rusty1961
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alfred






Alfred


Commenting on #5 only...a laughable statement.

Sub commanders NEVER give in their reports the speed and direction of the ships they engage or even see, yet that was standard operating procedure for US sub commanders to report to Pearl.

Standard Operating Procedure.


Then at midnight of each night US subs gave Fox reports on their daily movements and encounters.


Sorry, no sale on #5.

The word abstraction is obviously not found in your dictionary.

1. In AE the Allied player is Nimitz (or his equivalent in each theatre). Everything is then abstracted down from there. It is standard operating procedure for a strategic/operational wargame. You are not the sub commander. Nor the officer the sub commander reports to who is the person, not Nimitz, who gets to read those reports and act upon them.

2. The game engine has its own abstracted intel module. Such information you claim is not provided is in fact provided in abstract form as part of the MDL. It is what allows a sub to "react" in "real time" following an enemy TF.

3. You, as the player (ie Nimitz), can't act on that information anyway so what is the point of you (ie Nimitz) having it. The on the spot sub commander has it and in game terms that information is only relevant to the on the spot sub commander. What you want is more chrome with absolutely zero game utility but exponentially increasing demands on computer hardware and human frustration.

4. So many things abstracted into the game which IRL would generate a report usually only read and acted upon by someone below Nimitz. To name only a few. Shortage of "supply" (a huge abstraction in its own right as it includes such myriad things like water, food, ammo, building materials etc) at base X, please send supply. Aye Cap'n, shes running low on fuel, better request a fuel transfer from the TF flagship else the TF will be dead in the water. You don't get that report either but miraculously the abstraction allows for underway fuel transfer. Here's another one, you don't get a report breaking down the cause of device disablement. How many men are disabled due to (a) malaria, (b) STD, (c) combat injuries, (d) work accidents etc. Nor are you told their estimated convalescence period.

5. So many other exemplars could be provided and none of them relevant in this particular game engine with its built in abstractions. What you do get is more relevant and accurate information which can be acted upon by Nimitz. Combat Reports provide accurate details on enemy LCU losses. Back in the real world unless you are able to capture the ground held by the enemy, you can't determine with any degree of accuracy how many enemy troops were killed in that last attack (and not all enemy killed are found on the captured battleground). Yet in AE the majority of land attacks result in no advance but the CR still lists how many enemy troops were killed, how many artillery guns (often way back behind the front line anyway) were destroyed, and so on. IRL it is never possible to accurate determine enemy non fatal casualties even if the enemy ground is ceased. You can count the number of POWs captured but you can't count how many injured withdrew with the rest of the enemy able bodied. The CR identifies specific enemy air units providing CAP, IRL that information is subject to a much greater degree of uncertainty. Naval CR and combat animation identifies specific enemy ships. Not so easy IRL, particularly enemy subs launching torpedoes whilst submerged.

Alfred


Sorry, no sale. To say Nimitz wouldn't get information on the Japanese Combined Fleet's Location/Speed and Direction due to "abstraction" yet Nimitz would get tons of information how many torpedoes the USS Tang launched at the PB Osaka is so contradictory it defies the most vivid imagination.

Intel Officer: "Sir, we found KB!!!"

Nimitz: "How many torpedoes Mush launch at that AKL?"

Intel Officer: "Don't you want to know where KB is and where they are going?"

Nimitz: "No, I want to know about that AKL and how many fish hit her"

Yes, you're asking us to believe a conversation like that happened or would have.

That is laughable.


The problem is you hide behind "Abstraction" a lot. Too much actually.

But keep spinning, you're the best at it.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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dasboot1960
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by dasboot1960 »

MIKE SOLLI - Thank you for your patience with these last several pages. Although almost entirely off topic to your AAR, they are illuminating, and now easily referenceable, since I have you bookmarked. I don't know where I come down as to what should or should not be public, but thank you again for not making a big fuss about them surfacing here. Got a new turn report?
Down like a CLOWN!
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Mike Solli
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I haven't crossed the Rubicon, merely parlayed across it. Plus my proconsulship remains until March.

Only if the Senate willingly grants me the position of Dictator for life might I even contemplate your request.[:)]

Alfred

I appreciate this reference. We need more Roman war references (any of them) and fewer Civil War references in these parts [;)]
I will hurl someone from the Tarpeian Rock if we don't have a turn soon. [8|]

You and me both, Zorch. Ted has some guests from out of the country and is wining and dining them. They're supposed to leave soon (I hope). [:D]
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Mike Solli
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

MIKE SOLLI - Thank you for your patience with these last several pages. Although almost entirely off topic to your AAR, they are illuminating, and now easily referenceable, since I have you bookmarked. I don't know where I come down as to what should or should not be public, but thank you again for not making a big fuss about them surfacing here. Got a new turn report?

Thanks much. I appreciate that. You'll get the report within a day of me getting a turn.
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Sardaukar
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





Commenting on #5 only...a laughable statement.

Sub commanders NEVER give in their reports the speed and direction of the ships they engage or even see, yet that was standard operating procedure for US sub commanders to report to Pearl.

Standard Operating Procedure.


Then at midnight of each night US subs gave Fox reports on their daily movements and encounters.


Sorry, no sale on #5.

The word abstraction is obviously not found in your dictionary.

1. In AE the Allied player is Nimitz (or his equivalent in each theatre). Everything is then abstracted down from there. It is standard operating procedure for a strategic/operational wargame. You are not the sub commander. Nor the officer the sub commander reports to who is the person, not Nimitz, who gets to read those reports and act upon them.

2. The game engine has its own abstracted intel module. Such information you claim is not provided is in fact provided in abstract form as part of the MDL. It is what allows a sub to "react" in "real time" following an enemy TF.

3. You, as the player (ie Nimitz), can't act on that information anyway so what is the point of you (ie Nimitz) having it. The on the spot sub commander has it and in game terms that information is only relevant to the on the spot sub commander. What you want is more chrome with absolutely zero game utility but exponentially increasing demands on computer hardware and human frustration.

4. So many things abstracted into the game which IRL would generate a report usually only read and acted upon by someone below Nimitz. To name only a few. Shortage of "supply" (a huge abstraction in its own right as it includes such myriad things like water, food, ammo, building materials etc) at base X, please send supply. Aye Cap'n, shes running low on fuel, better request a fuel transfer from the TF flagship else the TF will be dead in the water. You don't get that report either but miraculously the abstraction allows for underway fuel transfer. Here's another one, you don't get a report breaking down the cause of device disablement. How many men are disabled due to (a) malaria, (b) STD, (c) combat injuries, (d) work accidents etc. Nor are you told their estimated convalescence period.

5. So many other exemplars could be provided and none of them relevant in this particular game engine with its built in abstractions. What you do get is more relevant and accurate information which can be acted upon by Nimitz. Combat Reports provide accurate details on enemy LCU losses. Back in the real world unless you are able to capture the ground held by the enemy, you can't determine with any degree of accuracy how many enemy troops were killed in that last attack (and not all enemy killed are found on the captured battleground). Yet in AE the majority of land attacks result in no advance but the CR still lists how many enemy troops were killed, how many artillery guns (often way back behind the front line anyway) were destroyed, and so on. IRL it is never possible to accurate determine enemy non fatal casualties even if the enemy ground is ceased. You can count the number of POWs captured but you can't count how many injured withdrew with the rest of the enemy able bodied. The CR identifies specific enemy air units providing CAP, IRL that information is subject to a much greater degree of uncertainty. Naval CR and combat animation identifies specific enemy ships. Not so easy IRL, particularly enemy subs launching torpedoes whilst submerged.

Alfred


Sorry, no sale. To say Nimitz wouldn't get information on the Japanese Combined Fleet's Location/Speed and Direction due to "abstraction" yet Nimitz would get tons of information how many torpedoes the USS Tang launched at the PB Osaka is so contradictory it defies the most vivid imagination.

Intel Officer: "Sir, we found KB!!!"

Nimitz: "How many torpedoes Mush launch at that AKL?"

Intel Officer: "Don't you want to know where KB is and where they are going?"

Nimitz: "No, I want to know about that AKL and how many fish hit her"

Yes, you're asking us to believe a conversation like that happened or would have.

That is laughable.


The problem is you hide behind "Abstraction" a lot. Too much actually.

But keep spinning, you're the best at it.

Just don't play. Seems WitP-AE is not a game for you.

It is Strategic/Operational wargame with some tactical aspects you can change. Apparently not your cup of tea.

Your understanding of WitP-AE as wargame seems to be sorely lacking, so I'd kindly ask you to stop deriding people who actually understand it decently well or better (e.g. Alfred).

If you don't understand difference between Combat report and Operational intelligence...then I am sorry to inform you that you are beyond redemption.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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Rusty1961
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RE: Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alfred




The word abstraction is obviously not found in your dictionary.

1. In AE the Allied player is Nimitz (or his equivalent in each theatre). Everything is then abstracted down from there. It is standard operating procedure for a strategic/operational wargame. You are not the sub commander. Nor the officer the sub commander reports to who is the person, not Nimitz, who gets to read those reports and act upon them.

2. The game engine has its own abstracted intel module. Such information you claim is not provided is in fact provided in abstract form as part of the MDL. It is what allows a sub to "react" in "real time" following an enemy TF.

3. You, as the player (ie Nimitz), can't act on that information anyway so what is the point of you (ie Nimitz) having it. The on the spot sub commander has it and in game terms that information is only relevant to the on the spot sub commander. What you want is more chrome with absolutely zero game utility but exponentially increasing demands on computer hardware and human frustration.

4. So many things abstracted into the game which IRL would generate a report usually only read and acted upon by someone below Nimitz. To name only a few. Shortage of "supply" (a huge abstraction in its own right as it includes such myriad things like water, food, ammo, building materials etc) at base X, please send supply. Aye Cap'n, shes running low on fuel, better request a fuel transfer from the TF flagship else the TF will be dead in the water. You don't get that report either but miraculously the abstraction allows for underway fuel transfer. Here's another one, you don't get a report breaking down the cause of device disablement. How many men are disabled due to (a) malaria, (b) STD, (c) combat injuries, (d) work accidents etc. Nor are you told their estimated convalescence period.

5. So many other exemplars could be provided and none of them relevant in this particular game engine with its built in abstractions. What you do get is more relevant and accurate information which can be acted upon by Nimitz. Combat Reports provide accurate details on enemy LCU losses. Back in the real world unless you are able to capture the ground held by the enemy, you can't determine with any degree of accuracy how many enemy troops were killed in that last attack (and not all enemy killed are found on the captured battleground). Yet in AE the majority of land attacks result in no advance but the CR still lists how many enemy troops were killed, how many artillery guns (often way back behind the front line anyway) were destroyed, and so on. IRL it is never possible to accurate determine enemy non fatal casualties even if the enemy ground is ceased. You can count the number of POWs captured but you can't count how many injured withdrew with the rest of the enemy able bodied. The CR identifies specific enemy air units providing CAP, IRL that information is subject to a much greater degree of uncertainty. Naval CR and combat animation identifies specific enemy ships. Not so easy IRL, particularly enemy subs launching torpedoes whilst submerged.

Alfred


Sorry, no sale. To say Nimitz wouldn't get information on the Japanese Combined Fleet's Location/Speed and Direction due to "abstraction" yet Nimitz would get tons of information how many torpedoes the USS Tang launched at the PB Osaka is so contradictory it defies the most vivid imagination.

Intel Officer: "Sir, we found KB!!!"

Nimitz: "How many torpedoes Mush launch at that AKL?"

Intel Officer: "Don't you want to know where KB is and where they are going?"

Nimitz: "No, I want to know about that AKL and how many fish hit her"

Yes, you're asking us to believe a conversation like that happened or would have.

That is laughable.


The problem is you hide behind "Abstraction" a lot. Too much actually.

But keep spinning, you're the best at it.

Just don't play. Seems WitP-AE is not a game for you.

It is Strategic/Operational wargame with some tactical aspects you can change. Apparently not your cup of tea.

Your understanding of WitP-AE as wargame seems to be sorely lacking, so I'd kindly ask you to stop deriding people who actually understand it decently well or better (e.g. Alfred).

If you don't understand difference between Combat report and Operational intelligence...then I am sorry to inform you that you are beyond redemption.


Yeah, like I'm the first one who wanted something included that wasn't there.

My bad.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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