The Sugar war machine

[Rannug61]

Sugar playing style as Axis:

No investment in U-Boat tech until very late

Doesn't do Seelöve unless you send an invitation

Builds all air units and has focus on air tech... even with Italy

Industrial tech is an early focus

Likes to kill enemy air units and HQ's

Starts of very slow and late in Russia

"Never" makes mistakes, doesn't hurry and rarely has any units being killed

Strong focus on Egypt and Iraq/Persia

No Atlantic wall in France

Only builds Anti-air and other special units late

Probably sells tech chits as rockets, artillery and antitank early

Always gets Spain via diplo or DE

Uses his air-force as counter to any early D-Day


What more is typical for the Sugar playing style? Can he be beaten? Ever?[&:]

[Ktonos]

-Micro manages HQ attachments (don't know if this is the norm. At least I find it too tedious)
-Spends like 15%+ of total income to operate HQs and Air around the map where action is the thickest. It's like Luftwaffe is everywhere
-Last calorie burned in every single Axis game is his index finger clicking London while a Para is selected

[GeneralFerraro]

Dear Commanders, thank you for this fascinating information about the mighty Sugar War Machine! It's always useful to learn from the Master.

A quick question: does the Sugar War Machine invade Greece at all? Or does it rather ignore Greece and go faster for Barbarossa?

By the way, I had a good laugh from the "last calorie" bit! [:D]

[Markiss]

Rannug,
I cannot help but notice that the strategy you lay out here appears to be the exact strategy you are using in your game against me. Comrade Stalin will make you pay for ignoring him!!! I can't believe that I have gotten through the first whole campaign season without a single point of damage to my core units. On the other hand, you would never have taken Cairo if you hadn't devoted your entire air force to it for a year.
If I can beat Sugar's plan, maybe one day I can beat Sugar!

[Rannug61]

I think Sugar wants to go for Greece but doesn't always do it, depends on the situation.

I did pick up some moves from Sugar but only the stuff I can handle.. I don't dare to leave France undefended like he does. I make lots of small errors and some big ones. The Sugar war machine doesn't.
You can probably beat my weak version of the Sugar plan but it's not anything like facing the real thing

[Markiss]

I am a little concerned that this Sugar "cookie cutter" plan is all that Allied players are going to see until someone finds a way to beat it.
Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar? Let's see how he beats his own plan! Then we can copy it and force players to use more varied strategies.
I just hope that this game is not "solved". It would be a shame.

[Sugar]

Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar

Sure, and I won all my Allied games also. The plan is mainly to conquer the victory objectives asap, with some variants regarding a Mediterranian strategy and the general approach of air superioty.

The balancing's fine, like it was in Breakthrough SoE. The difference is my experience of more than 70 PbEMs SC3 and more than 200 of Breakthrough, including SoE, and of 12 years with SC alltogether.

[GeneralFerraro]

ORIGINAL: Markiss

I am a little concerned that this Sugar "cookie cutter" plan is all that Allied players are going to see until someone finds a way to beat it.
Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar? Let's see how he beats his own plan! Then we can copy it and force players to use more varied strategies.
I just hope that this game is not "solved". It would be a shame.

Nah, that doesn't happen, and it won't in the future. The Sugar War Machine doesn't really work without Sugar in charge. The Machine needs a commander with nerves of steel, who doesn't make mistakes ever, or very minor. I've tried following the blueprint of the Sugar War Machine. But you make a couple of serious mistakes, as every human being does, and you are dead. There is no possible copy of the Sugar War Machine

[GeneralFerraro]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Has anyone ever played the Sugar plan against Sugar

Sure, and I won all my Allied games also.

Please notice that the Sugar War Machine plays against itself, as shown in the answer to the question "has anyone played the Sugar plan against Sugar?" the Sugar War Machine says "Yea, I did"

However, please notice also that the Sugar War Machine plays against itself, and it wins nonetheless [&o]

[Sugar]

Couldn't find a more competent opponent. [:D]

[Titan]

Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy

[GeneralFerraro]

ORIGINAL: Titan

Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy

OMG, just imagine the Sugar War Machine instead of Adolf in the bunker. All of us would be speaking German... JAWOHL, AND WIR WÄREN SEHR GLÜCKLICH DARÜBER, MIT GEWISSEN AUSNAHMEN SELBSTVERSTÄNLICH [X(]

[Titan]

ORIGINAL: GeneralFerraro

ORIGINAL: Titan

Sounds more like one has mastered the Art of exploiting a weakness in game design than anything else. Why didn't Germany adopt that strategy

OMG, just imagine the Sugar War Machine instead of Adolf in the bunker. All of us would be speaking German... JAWOHL, AND WIR WÄREN SEHR GLÜCKLICH DARÜBER, MIT GEWISSEN AUSNAHMEN SELBSTVERSTÄNLICH [X(]

In reality i doubt there would of been any chance of that, Germany would never of been able to build that many aircraft let alone teleport aircraft all over Europe within a flash with there support crews destroy D-Day then teleport back to the Russian front without even having to worry out fuel and all the other logistical issues this game doesn't model. And it certainly doesnt work in a more historical game such as war in the east not that thats perfect either, but it is abit closer to the mark

[Sugar]

Of course Titan, and it explains perfectly why I'm winning every game on either side. Could you also explain where the exploit is, if any side can do the same? And why isn't the Axis winning every game, if it was that easy?

[Rannug61]

SC3 doesn't try to be an historical simulation.... it's a game and both sides should have an equal chance to win. In RL Axis was more or less doomed once they started the war on Russia. Sugar would have been a better war leader then Hitler but from a military point of view Axis couldn't win once all the allied power were united even if a sane leader was in charge. I'm sure there are better games out there that tries to simulate history but that is not the idea with SC3. If the Axis should have won the war it had to be some kind of diplomatic or political solution before everyone ganged up on them.

With that said I also think teleporting air units is too easy/cheep as it stands now.

[James Taylor]

I think what the game needs is a better representation of the logistics to operate a Luftflotte.

That being a definition of what constitutes a Luftflotte or for the Allies an air wing(force) and the limit of one of those air groups controlled by an HQ(the logistical base).


Usually one HQ controls the air group and I would define that as a SC fighter, TAC and a medium, strategic, or Naval bomber unit, 3 total(any combination).


Not perfect, but for our game of grand strategy, good enough!

[Elessar2]

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

I think what the game needs is a better representation of the logistics to operate a Luftflotte.

That being a definition of what constitutes a Luftflotte or for the Allies an air wing(force) and the limit of one of those air groups controlled by an HQ(the logistical base).


Usually one HQ controls the air group and I would define that as a SC fighter, TAC and a medium, strategic, or Naval bomber unit, 3 total(any combination).


Not perfect, but for our game of grand strategy, good enough!

We already have transport points, so see no reason why we can't have Operational movement points, reflecting rail capacity [and thus allowing for Logistics tech to up your capacity a bit].

[Sugar]

That would make air combat more expensive, I doubt that's the solution. The Brits can easily have the same amounts of aircraft in Egypt and additionally 5 carriers. No reason to lose against a strong Luftwaffe, unless you didn`t get how air combat really works imho.

At least it should be somehow possible to reach the goals for both sides. The limited speed and numbers of tanks compared to Breakthrough SoE shifts the focus to aircraft. I would prefer the opposite, but at least it`s perfectly reflecting WWII warfare. How many aircraft did the Allies use in Normandy? And what happened to Army Group Center after losing air superiority in 44?

[elxaime]

ORIGINAL: Rannug61
What more is typical for the Sugar playing style? Can he be beaten? Ever?[&:]

The only thing that can kill Barnes - is Barnes!

[Titan]

Don't get me wrong here..certainly Kudo's to Sugar for mastering this...But the point is he is winning by having good knowledge and better understanding on game mechanic's than anyone else and how to use them, thats all, and less so than strategical or tactical skill, i can play him at one of my favourite games (Combat Mission series...Turnbased as well) that is probably as far as games go one of the best tactical games out there that is as close to real life tactics and physics as one can get....And i would clean him up big time. A game that allows one to teleport air power and all over the map from hotspot to hotspot to blast all threats off the map just shows how over powered air units are in this and it boils down to just to who knows how best to manage to do that and the right steps to take to achieve it that,s all.....Nothing to do with being a strategical master or tactical genuis i'm afriad..