Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
Look forward to the ultra late game updates!! [8D]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
July 19th to August 1st, 1945
North Pacific
Beyond the occasional bombardment of coastal bases on Hokkaido, the situation here is stable. The coastal airbases have been abandoned, but troops remain in strength to oppose any landing.
Manchuira
Soviet activation heralds the activation of the Kwantung Army. Supported by units from China, I have decent hopes to stall the Soviet forces here for at least a month.
My attempt to use the KB to whack Soviet shipping in the day after activation fails because ships don't arrive until the end of the turn. A fair few Judy's lost for no gain.
China
Still getting rolled up here, though Canton, Shanghai and Hong Kong all continue to resist.
Formosa
Allied landings at Kagi and Hengchung give the Allies footholds on Formosa, but attempts to move out of these bases are stymied by heavy fortifications and a number of Japanese troops. Takao is currently stalemated, while the bulk of the Allied army on Formosa seems poised to break the back of Japanese resistance at Taichu.
Home Islands
Supply is starting to be something of an issue as the war grinds on. Yellow and red exclaimation marks are appearing occasionally, more so since the last effort is being made to ship supply to Korea in preparation for combat operations against the Soviets.
In the skies, the B-29s rule supreme. The brave cadre of Japanese fighter pilots continue to fight on, but it's a losing battle overall.
The last ditch depot divisions are starting to arrive as reinforcements, a sign of the times.
North Pacific
Beyond the occasional bombardment of coastal bases on Hokkaido, the situation here is stable. The coastal airbases have been abandoned, but troops remain in strength to oppose any landing.
Manchuira
Soviet activation heralds the activation of the Kwantung Army. Supported by units from China, I have decent hopes to stall the Soviet forces here for at least a month.
My attempt to use the KB to whack Soviet shipping in the day after activation fails because ships don't arrive until the end of the turn. A fair few Judy's lost for no gain.
China
Still getting rolled up here, though Canton, Shanghai and Hong Kong all continue to resist.
Formosa
Allied landings at Kagi and Hengchung give the Allies footholds on Formosa, but attempts to move out of these bases are stymied by heavy fortifications and a number of Japanese troops. Takao is currently stalemated, while the bulk of the Allied army on Formosa seems poised to break the back of Japanese resistance at Taichu.
Home Islands
Supply is starting to be something of an issue as the war grinds on. Yellow and red exclaimation marks are appearing occasionally, more so since the last effort is being made to ship supply to Korea in preparation for combat operations against the Soviets.
In the skies, the B-29s rule supreme. The brave cadre of Japanese fighter pilots continue to fight on, but it's a losing battle overall.
The last ditch depot divisions are starting to arrive as reinforcements, a sign of the times.
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
This game is still trundling along through August, and I'll write an update to bring this AAR back up to day in the next day or two.
This is more of an aide memoir to myself and anyone else looking to the Japanese late-game to keep in mind when preparing for the wheels to come off the Japanese war cart.
Strategic considerations:
- The Kuriles/Sakhilin becomes immensely important for Japan to hold once the Soviets activate as it firmly isolates the embryonic Soviet Pacific Fleet from Allied help.
- The Tsushima strait bases are equally important. By 1945 the only safe sea-lanes are those hidden behind natural barriers or big coastal guns, and even then subs and aircraft can work away.
- Keeping the Sea of Japan a Japanese lake is probably the primary strategic consideration for Japan in 1945, as it practically ensures that the northern seaboard is safe from invasion and provides a refuge for any remaining Japanese warships to operate from relatively safe from Allied attack.
- Manchuria can't be held against the Russians. Korea, maybe.
- Inland bases can't be bombarded from the horde of late-war Allied battleships.
Economic considerations:
- Supply needs skyrocket in 1945, so it is important that all needed construction work is completed prior to this point to enable all supply produced to go towards combat operations.
- Allied 4E bombers can bomb supply out of almost any base. To that end, single hex positions (one hex islands) can be starved out in a single day, so supply needs to be dispersed between several bases and moved as needed. It may even be worthwhile to load it on ships until needed?
- The fact that aircraft pools can't be bombed is the only good thing about strategic bombing for Japan.
- More or less every airbase in mainland Japan should be built as far as possible in order to enable both effective air defense of the Home Islands and potential mass-strikes against Allied shipping.
The Ground War:
- Japanese units can't attack anything after 1944.
- Japanese units don't belong in any terrain that's not at least a x2 multiplier.
- The ability of starved, bombed and shattered Japanese units to resist effectively in x3 terrain is not to be underestimated.
The Air War
- Basically it's micromanagement hell.
- It is absolutely paramount to establish a large cadre of trained pilots in the early and mid-war for both the IJN and IJA to soak up the pilot losses that occur in the late-war attrition battles. Depending on the dedicated late-war training squadrons is not enough.
- A complete, holistic air defense network (flak, radar, balloons, day & night fighters) is needed in Japan as soon as the Allies are within B-29 range.
- Mitigate "free" kills to Allied sweeps. If you're unable to put a minimum CAP of 300 third generation fighters over a base, don't put anything at all. The advantage is always with the sweepers, but you can get reasonably favorable exchanges through just throwing a few hundred planes in the air.
- The Soviet Air Force is behind the technical curve of Japan by the late-war, so committing fighter groups to Manchuria may be worthwhile for live-fire training and skill-building for late-war Japanese pilots.
- Identify and develop airbases in hexes with little/no strategic value to act as R&R stations for squadrons rotating off the front line.
- Night bombing is a pain. The best pilots need to go to night fighter squadrons, and the next best pilots need to be in day fighters flying night CAP, and then you need some token planes to bulk out the night CAP. There's never enough.
- Any '45 strike against Allied CV's will require close to a thousand aircraft, so dispersal of bombers in obscure bases away from Allied recon is key.
Naval War:
- By 1945 you've lost this through sheer weight of Allied production.
- Keep the KB around to pen the Soviet Pacific Fleet in Vlad though.
This is more of an aide memoir to myself and anyone else looking to the Japanese late-game to keep in mind when preparing for the wheels to come off the Japanese war cart.
Strategic considerations:
- The Kuriles/Sakhilin becomes immensely important for Japan to hold once the Soviets activate as it firmly isolates the embryonic Soviet Pacific Fleet from Allied help.
- The Tsushima strait bases are equally important. By 1945 the only safe sea-lanes are those hidden behind natural barriers or big coastal guns, and even then subs and aircraft can work away.
- Keeping the Sea of Japan a Japanese lake is probably the primary strategic consideration for Japan in 1945, as it practically ensures that the northern seaboard is safe from invasion and provides a refuge for any remaining Japanese warships to operate from relatively safe from Allied attack.
- Manchuria can't be held against the Russians. Korea, maybe.
- Inland bases can't be bombarded from the horde of late-war Allied battleships.
Economic considerations:
- Supply needs skyrocket in 1945, so it is important that all needed construction work is completed prior to this point to enable all supply produced to go towards combat operations.
- Allied 4E bombers can bomb supply out of almost any base. To that end, single hex positions (one hex islands) can be starved out in a single day, so supply needs to be dispersed between several bases and moved as needed. It may even be worthwhile to load it on ships until needed?
- The fact that aircraft pools can't be bombed is the only good thing about strategic bombing for Japan.
- More or less every airbase in mainland Japan should be built as far as possible in order to enable both effective air defense of the Home Islands and potential mass-strikes against Allied shipping.
The Ground War:
- Japanese units can't attack anything after 1944.
- Japanese units don't belong in any terrain that's not at least a x2 multiplier.
- The ability of starved, bombed and shattered Japanese units to resist effectively in x3 terrain is not to be underestimated.
The Air War
- Basically it's micromanagement hell.
- It is absolutely paramount to establish a large cadre of trained pilots in the early and mid-war for both the IJN and IJA to soak up the pilot losses that occur in the late-war attrition battles. Depending on the dedicated late-war training squadrons is not enough.
- A complete, holistic air defense network (flak, radar, balloons, day & night fighters) is needed in Japan as soon as the Allies are within B-29 range.
- Mitigate "free" kills to Allied sweeps. If you're unable to put a minimum CAP of 300 third generation fighters over a base, don't put anything at all. The advantage is always with the sweepers, but you can get reasonably favorable exchanges through just throwing a few hundred planes in the air.
- The Soviet Air Force is behind the technical curve of Japan by the late-war, so committing fighter groups to Manchuria may be worthwhile for live-fire training and skill-building for late-war Japanese pilots.
- Identify and develop airbases in hexes with little/no strategic value to act as R&R stations for squadrons rotating off the front line.
- Night bombing is a pain. The best pilots need to go to night fighter squadrons, and the next best pilots need to be in day fighters flying night CAP, and then you need some token planes to bulk out the night CAP. There's never enough.
- Any '45 strike against Allied CV's will require close to a thousand aircraft, so dispersal of bombers in obscure bases away from Allied recon is key.
Naval War:
- By 1945 you've lost this through sheer weight of Allied production.
- Keep the KB around to pen the Soviet Pacific Fleet in Vlad though.
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
Korea can be held for quite a while, unless the allies land behind you. There are 3 or 4 good lines to defend.
+1 on holding inland sea.
+1 on air base builds ... and you want at least lvl 6 forts there. they do help, although the only way you can tell is when they bomb something with only lvl 3 forts... those are obliterated beyond recognition.
+1 on pilot pools. you need +2000 fully trained fighter pilots min entering 6/44. you should be able to guesstimate bomber/recon et al from that.
+1 on holding inland sea.
+1 on air base builds ... and you want at least lvl 6 forts there. they do help, although the only way you can tell is when they bomb something with only lvl 3 forts... those are obliterated beyond recognition.
+1 on pilot pools. you need +2000 fully trained fighter pilots min entering 6/44. you should be able to guesstimate bomber/recon et al from that.
Pax
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
We're up to September 20th in this game now, and the roof and much of the walls are gone from the Imperial Palace...
Manchuria/Korea
Soviet armies have the major cities in Manchuria invested, and look set to take them before the end of the month. Advance units of the combined American-Chinese Army in China are fast closing on Port Arthur, which has mostly been abandoned.
All IJA units that are not engaged in combat have withdrawn to Korea. Those that remain are in strong defensive positions and will stand and fight a delaying action as long as possible.
A strong Soviet armoured corps has moved down the Eastern Korean coast much faster than anticipated, leaving IJA units struggling to maintain a proper blocking position.
Hokkaido
Air operations here are severely curtailed by a lack of supply, and there's very little excess on Honshu to support Hokkaido. Serious consideration is being given to withdrawing all air units from Hokkaido until further notice.
Japanese air strength on Honshu is mixed. Both the IJA and IJN fighter wings are benefiting from large numbers of advanced airframes, and constant combat duties is helping to drive up pilot EXP. Recent exchanges with US Mustangs over Kyushu has resulted in very favourable results for the Japanese.
The anti-shipping component of both the IJA and IJN is gutted however. While the large scale training programs have paid dividends in building pilot skills, there's a lack of exprienced squadrons for operational duties, and it's near impossible to build pilot EXP in this enviroment.
There are, however, plenty of suitable kamikaze pilots, and an abundance of airframes for them to use.
Bonin Islands
Massive Allied task force is approaching the Bonin Islands. Small airbases prevent a massive kamikaze strike, but a few hundred planes are moved in to test Allied responses.
On the ground, the defenders are well prepared. While supply is low (as it is everywhere in the Empire at this late stage), the islands are filled with troops up to their stacking limits, and fortifications are maxed out at level 6.
Hopefully this will be the invasion that is so bloody it forces the Allies to the peace table...
Manchuria/Korea
Soviet armies have the major cities in Manchuria invested, and look set to take them before the end of the month. Advance units of the combined American-Chinese Army in China are fast closing on Port Arthur, which has mostly been abandoned.
All IJA units that are not engaged in combat have withdrawn to Korea. Those that remain are in strong defensive positions and will stand and fight a delaying action as long as possible.
A strong Soviet armoured corps has moved down the Eastern Korean coast much faster than anticipated, leaving IJA units struggling to maintain a proper blocking position.
Hokkaido
Air operations here are severely curtailed by a lack of supply, and there's very little excess on Honshu to support Hokkaido. Serious consideration is being given to withdrawing all air units from Hokkaido until further notice.
Japanese air strength on Honshu is mixed. Both the IJA and IJN fighter wings are benefiting from large numbers of advanced airframes, and constant combat duties is helping to drive up pilot EXP. Recent exchanges with US Mustangs over Kyushu has resulted in very favourable results for the Japanese.
The anti-shipping component of both the IJA and IJN is gutted however. While the large scale training programs have paid dividends in building pilot skills, there's a lack of exprienced squadrons for operational duties, and it's near impossible to build pilot EXP in this enviroment.
There are, however, plenty of suitable kamikaze pilots, and an abundance of airframes for them to use.
Bonin Islands
Massive Allied task force is approaching the Bonin Islands. Small airbases prevent a massive kamikaze strike, but a few hundred planes are moved in to test Allied responses.
On the ground, the defenders are well prepared. While supply is low (as it is everywhere in the Empire at this late stage), the islands are filled with troops up to their stacking limits, and fortifications are maxed out at level 6.
Hopefully this will be the invasion that is so bloody it forces the Allies to the peace table...
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
Here's an extract from the last turns combat report to give JFB's hope that they CAN beat the strato-sweeps.
Based on what I've seen so far, the Shinden on low-level CAP with the Ki94 up at altitude is the best for beating the stratosweeps. Beating the 4E bombers is harder, but that's just a numbers game of getting enough CAP up to tear into the bombers.
At this late stage I consider the second generation fighters (Tony, George, Jack) as mere fodder, to be thrown at B-29 squadrons or as ablative armour for kami strikes.
If we get to a major invasion in range of large IJ bases on the Home Islands, I've some very nifty ideas that might get a cataclysmic result (but probably won't work).
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 20, 45
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Morning Air attack on Oita , at 104,59
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 44,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 2
Ki-84r Frank x 16
Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 22
Japanese aircraft losses
J7W1 Shinden: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 9 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 41900 feet
CAP engaged:
24th Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
71st Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
958 Ku T-1/C with J7W1 Shinden (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 12000.
Raid is overhead
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Morning Air attack on Kagoshima , at 102,60
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 48 NM, estimated altitude 46,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 19
Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 22
Japanese aircraft losses
J7W1 Shinden: 5 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 4 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x P-47D25 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet
CAP engaged:
Zuiho-1/B with J7W1 Shinden (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
958 Ku T-1/C with J7W1 Shinden (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 12000.
Raid is overhead
S-303 Hikotai with J7W1 Shinden (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(13 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
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Morning Air attack on Oita , at 104,59
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 46,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 1
Ki-84r Frank x 9
Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
24th Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 61 minutes
958 Ku T-1/C with J7W1 Shinden (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
71st Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
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Morning Air attack on Kagoshima , at 102,60
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 43,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J7W1 Shinden x 7
Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
J7W1 Shinden: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
Zuiho-1/B with J7W1 Shinden (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 41000 and 43000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
S-303 Hikotai with J7W1 Shinden (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
Based on what I've seen so far, the Shinden on low-level CAP with the Ki94 up at altitude is the best for beating the stratosweeps. Beating the 4E bombers is harder, but that's just a numbers game of getting enough CAP up to tear into the bombers.
At this late stage I consider the second generation fighters (Tony, George, Jack) as mere fodder, to be thrown at B-29 squadrons or as ablative armour for kami strikes.
If we get to a major invasion in range of large IJ bases on the Home Islands, I've some very nifty ideas that might get a cataclysmic result (but probably won't work).
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
Twilight of the Empire
Here's something you don't see every day.
After a month of preparation, the Allied hammer hits Honshu. The Japanese defence has plenty of warning, with the Allied task force transiting past the Bonins. At first, it was assumed that the Allied ships were aiming to secure the Bonins to remove a threat to the Allied flank, but the ships kept heading east.
Carefully remaining off-shore and out of effective range for most Japanese aircraft, the Allies manage to position themselves without much hassle. Initially, the movements of the Allied fleet gave the impression of being a decoy force to bait kamikaze attacks from Japan, but as September developed it became clear that it was the real deal.
The IJA and IJN air groups are marshalled, with varying mission profiles. The over-arching strategy is to exhaust the extensive Allied CAP by heavy sorties at vastly different altitudes, from 100 ft above sea level to well into the stratosphere. Strict orders were sent out to retain all aircraft for the day the Allies begin landing operations.
That day was the 27th of September.
The carnage is extreme. For brevity's sake, I'll cut out the uninteresting combat reports, and show the ones where IJ forces did damage.
D-Day is a poor day for the IJN, with only a single motorboat squadron intercepting the Allied ships, and they're driven off by 5inch and 40mm AA fire.
The IJNAF, however, make a stellar comeback on the morning of the 27th. As was the case early in the war, it is the 2E bombers of the IJN that land the heaviest blow.
A vast majority of Japanese strikes are intercepted by the massively strong Allied CAP, but in the utter chaos of air combat above Honshu, it's impossible for the Allied aviators to eliminate every Allied strike.
While the intention of Japanese High Command had been to focus on the heavily loaded transport ships, this proves impossible, as hot-headed squadron and flight leaders attack any Allied ship they can find, even those protected by the frighteningly strong CAP over the Allied fleet carriers. Some, however, make it through.
As the day winds on, it's clear that the Allies have the upper hand in the air. Japanese attacks are fragmented and shredded by strong Allied fighter patrols. The amphibious ships are able to unload without much issue, with strong Allied forces coming ashore.
Extensive preparations were made with the Allied landing, with the suspected target being Sendai or Iwaki, but the Allies go for the jugular, landing at Chiba and Utsonomiya. While these locations are not as strongly held as others on Honshu, they nonetheless boast a considerable number of defenders, and are well dug in behind level five forts. They will fight hard.
At the end of the day, over a thousand Japanese planes lie destroyed.
401 pilots are dead, 159 more are missing and 280 are wounded. But more are ready.
The Allied second wave appears to be approaching the landing sites, and already the second line of Japanese strike aircraft are marshalling, including the dedicated kamikaze squadrons. The full might of Japan's remaining naval, ground and air power is being sent to respond to the landing. Any combat capable aircraft in range is being focused on the landing zones, and reserve units from all across Honshu are being railed to the battlezone. The last of the IJN's surface fleet is at Yokohama, making sail towards the beaches in two groups. One, with the battleships Haruna, Kirishima and the cruiser Suszuya, will smash a hole in the Allied fleet, while a second, slower group built around the battleship Mutsu will follow on to exploit the breakthrough. Gaggles of motor boats are also to follow behind to confuse and harass the Allied warships.
With the Allies having a toehold less than 46 miles from Tokyo and the Imperial Palace, this is no time for half-measures.
After a month of preparation, the Allied hammer hits Honshu. The Japanese defence has plenty of warning, with the Allied task force transiting past the Bonins. At first, it was assumed that the Allied ships were aiming to secure the Bonins to remove a threat to the Allied flank, but the ships kept heading east.
Carefully remaining off-shore and out of effective range for most Japanese aircraft, the Allies manage to position themselves without much hassle. Initially, the movements of the Allied fleet gave the impression of being a decoy force to bait kamikaze attacks from Japan, but as September developed it became clear that it was the real deal.
The IJA and IJN air groups are marshalled, with varying mission profiles. The over-arching strategy is to exhaust the extensive Allied CAP by heavy sorties at vastly different altitudes, from 100 ft above sea level to well into the stratosphere. Strict orders were sent out to retain all aircraft for the day the Allies begin landing operations.
That day was the 27th of September.
The carnage is extreme. For brevity's sake, I'll cut out the uninteresting combat reports, and show the ones where IJ forces did damage.
D-Day is a poor day for the IJN, with only a single motorboat squadron intercepting the Allied ships, and they're driven off by 5inch and 40mm AA fire.
The IJNAF, however, make a stellar comeback on the morning of the 27th. As was the case early in the war, it is the 2E bombers of the IJN that land the heaviest blow.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Chiba at 114,61
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 5
P1Y2 Frances x 76
Ki-94-II x 29
Ki-100-I Tony x 22
Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 8
Hellcat F.II x 9
Seafire L.III x 6
FM-2 Wildcat x 54
F4U-1D Corsair x 116
F6F-3 Hellcat x 25
F6F-5 Hellcat x 222
F8F-1 Bearcat x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
P1Y2 Frances: 31 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-94-II: 3 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 3 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
CVE Roi, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Vella Gulf, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Marcus Island
CVE Commencement Bay
CVE Kasaan Bay, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Gilbert Islands
CVE Matanikau
CVE Lunga Point
CVE Kwajalein
CVE Kadashan Bay
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Kasaan Bay
A vast majority of Japanese strikes are intercepted by the massively strong Allied CAP, but in the utter chaos of air combat above Honshu, it's impossible for the Allied aviators to eliminate every Allied strike.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Chiba at 114,61
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes
Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 22
P1Y2 Frances x 5
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 17
Ki-48-IIc Lily x 15
Ki-84r Frank x 4
Ki-94-II x 2
Ki-201 Karyu x 1
Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 4
Hellcat F.II x 12
Seafire L.III x 2
FM-2 Wildcat x 41
F4U-1A Corsair x 11
F4U-1D Corsair x 251
F6F-3 Hellcat x 50
F6F-5 Hellcat x 251
F8F-1 Bearcat x 11
Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged
P1Y2 Frances: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 9 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed
No Allied losses
Allied Ships
APA Pierce, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Gen. C.G.Morton
DE Fair
DE LeHardy, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
While the intention of Japanese High Command had been to focus on the heavily loaded transport ships, this proves impossible, as hot-headed squadron and flight leaders attack any Allied ship they can find, even those protected by the frighteningly strong CAP over the Allied fleet carriers. Some, however, make it through.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Utsonomiya at 115,61
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes
Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 27
B7A2 Grace x 22
Ki-48-IIc Lily x 21
Ki-94-II x 4
Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 4
Hellcat F.II x 16
Seafire L.III x 8
F4U-1A Corsair x 16
F4U-1D Corsair x 220
F6F-3 Hellcat x 32
F6F-5 Hellcat x 272
F8F-1 Bearcat x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 13 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
B7A2 Grace: 13 destroyed
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 7 destroyed
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed
No Allied losses
Allied Ships
BB Idaho, Kamikaze hits 1
As the day winds on, it's clear that the Allies have the upper hand in the air. Japanese attacks are fragmented and shredded by strong Allied fighter patrols. The amphibious ships are able to unload without much issue, with strong Allied forces coming ashore.
Extensive preparations were made with the Allied landing, with the suspected target being Sendai or Iwaki, but the Allies go for the jugular, landing at Chiba and Utsonomiya. While these locations are not as strongly held as others on Honshu, they nonetheless boast a considerable number of defenders, and are well dug in behind level five forts. They will fight hard.
Ground combat at Chiba (114,61)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 13790 troops, 218 guns, 129 vehicles, Assault Value = 869
Defending force 81090 troops, 846 guns, 1254 vehicles, Assault Value = 2921
Japanese ground losses:
83 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Assaulting units:
27th Tank Regiment
2nd SP Gun Battalion
3rd Ind.Tank Brigade
8th/A Division
1st Ind.Tank Brigade
8th/B Division
2nd Ind.Tank Brigade
48th Tank Regiment
8th/C Division
204th Naval Construction Battalion
18th Army
52nd Army
54th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
14th JNAF AF Unit
21st Air Flotilla
42nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
14th Hvy.Artillery Regiment
24th RF Gun Battalion
Mito JAAF Base Force
Defending units:
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
7th Infantry Div /13
815th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
93rd Infantry Div /4
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
Sixth Army Combat Engr Rgt /13
7th Indian Div /1
Guides Cavalry Regiment
33rd Infantry Div /13
3rd New Chinese Corps /27
XXIV Corps Combat Engr Rgt /13
8th Marine AA Battalion
XIV US Corps /1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Utsonomiya (115,60)
Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 33597 troops, 374 guns, 39 vehicles, Assault Value = 1618
Defending force 50088 troops, 649 guns, 974 vehicles, Assault Value = 1683
Japanese ground losses:
174 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Assaulting units:
51st Depot/A Division
140th/A Division
214th/A Division
140th/C Division
3rd Division
51st Depot/C Division
51st Depot/B Division
214th/B Division
351st/B Division
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
140th/B Division
214th/C Division
351st/A Division
351st/C Division
35th Ind. Hvy.Art. Battalion
51st Army
10th Air Fleet
52nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
27th Air Flotilla
61st Construction Battalion
Kasumigaura JNAF Base Force
Defending units:
24th Infantry Div /1
31st Infantry Div /1
IV Corps Engineer Battalion
6th Infantry Div /1
19th Motorised Div /1
7th RAN Base Force /2
V US Amphib Corps /1
At the end of the day, over a thousand Japanese planes lie destroyed.
401 pilots are dead, 159 more are missing and 280 are wounded. But more are ready.
The Allied second wave appears to be approaching the landing sites, and already the second line of Japanese strike aircraft are marshalling, including the dedicated kamikaze squadrons. The full might of Japan's remaining naval, ground and air power is being sent to respond to the landing. Any combat capable aircraft in range is being focused on the landing zones, and reserve units from all across Honshu are being railed to the battlezone. The last of the IJN's surface fleet is at Yokohama, making sail towards the beaches in two groups. One, with the battleships Haruna, Kirishima and the cruiser Suszuya, will smash a hole in the Allied fleet, while a second, slower group built around the battleship Mutsu will follow on to exploit the breakthrough. Gaggles of motor boats are also to follow behind to confuse and harass the Allied warships.
With the Allies having a toehold less than 46 miles from Tokyo and the Imperial Palace, this is no time for half-measures.
RE: Twilight of the Empire
3:1 losses are not unacceptable …
"this is no time for half-measures"
+1
"this is no time for half-measures"
+1
Pax
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
Sic Semper
The IJN goes all in, and the first contact outside Yokohama bodes well...
..but once the screening destroyers are batted aside an Allied SAG proves a tough nut to crack...
Thankfully the Mutsu picks an excellent moment to pounce, following up on the earlier damage dealt by the two Kongo-class battlecruisers.
However, the time when the IJN would dominate naval combat in the dark is long past, and a relic of 1941 reappears at the close of the IJN's dream in 1945.
Daylight exposes the sad plight of the CVL Ibuki, the only operational Japanese aircraft carrier. It is sent empty on a suicide mission to the south, hoping to draw Allied attention away from the landing beaches. It succeeds, to some extent...
In the air, it is pure exasperation for me. Despite marshalling hundreds of aircraft and doing everything in my power to maximize co-ordination, Japanese strikes are at best fragmented and at worst utterly random. LRCAP over the invasion hexes helps somewhat, but Allied CAP simply is too dense. Despite aircraft attacking from 39k down to 100ft, almost every strike is completely mauled long before it gets to see Allied ships. In the occasional scenario that planes get through, flak tends to murder the rest. Frustrating.
In total, IJ air losses are 1767 for the day, against 405 Allied.
3 kamikaze hits are reported on Allied CVE's.
Allied 4E bombers smash into Tokyo's airfields, smashing the already fragile groups concentrated there for the strike against the Allied fleet. Strikes are conducted elsewhere on Japan, netting a total of 501 aircraft destroyed on the ground.
Not limiting themselves to airbases, 4E bombers focus on the invasion beaches, carpet bombing Japanese fortifications.
Several more raids, smaller in nature, followed this.
The end result was that by the time the Allies attacked in Chiba, the Japanese defenders were severely disrupted.
While fresh reinforcements are being moved in rapdily to the region, given the open terrain and massive preponderance of Allied air and naval power and near complete freedom of action to employ it, the outcome is in doubt.
The only glimer of hope lies in the fact that the Allied beachhead at Utsonomiya seems to be contained, for the moment...
Whith such catastrophic losses in the air, the back of Japanese air power is firmly broken, and while the replacement pilots and planes exist to mend it, the requsite supply to mobilize these resources is lacking. Only Tokyo has any more than 20k supply, and replacing some 1700 planes will quickly lead to massive shortages in essential war products throughout the Empire...
Night Time Surface Combat, near Yokohama/Yokosuka at 114,62, Range 8,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Suzuya
DD Kiyokaze
DD Taekaze
DD Kiyousuki
DD Ozuki
DD Hazuki, Shell hits 1, on fire
Allied Ships
DD Franks, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
DD Halligan
DD Lewis Hancock
DD Haraden, Shell hits 2, on fire
..but once the screening destroyers are batted aside an Allied SAG proves a tough nut to crack...
Night Time Surface Combat, near Yokohama/Yokosuka at 114,62, Range 9,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 18, heavy fires, heavy damage 8 inch penetrating hits for the most part! Detaches and runs for cover
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Kiyokaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Taekaze
DD Kiyousuki, Shell hits 1
DD Ozuki, Shell hits 2
DD Hazuki, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
Allied Ships
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 1
CA Baltimore, Shell hits 1
CA Pittsburgh, Shell hits 6, on fire
CA St. Paul, Shell hits 2
DD Quiberon
DD Quickmatch
DD Quadrant
DD Saumarez
DD Teazer, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
DD Vigilant
DD Virago, Shell hits 2, on fire
Thankfully the Mutsu picks an excellent moment to pounce, following up on the earlier damage dealt by the two Kongo-class battlecruisers.
Night Time Surface Combat, near Yokohama/Yokosuka at 114,62, Range 8,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 7, on fire
DD Sakaki
DD Hishi, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Satsuki, Shell hits 1
Allied Ships
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City, on fire
CA Baltimore, Shell hits 2, on fire
CA Pittsburgh, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
CA St. Paul, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Quiberon
DD Quickmatch
DD Quadrant
DD Saumarez, Shell hits 1
DD Teazer, heavy fires
DD Vigilant, Shell hits 1
DD Virago, on fire
However, the time when the IJN would dominate naval combat in the dark is long past, and a relic of 1941 reappears at the close of the IJN's dream in 1945.
Night Time Surface Combat, near Yokohama/Yokosuka at 113,61, Range 7,000 Yards
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1b Jake: 2 destroyed
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 31, and is sunk
DD Kiyokaze, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Taekaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Kiyousuki, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 21, heavy fires Oddly poetic to have this ship here.
BC Renown, Shell hits 2
CB Guam, Shell hits 2
CL Boise, Shell hits 6 Ditto
DD Douglas Fox
DD Haynsworth, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Lyman K. Swenson, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD Chevalier II
CL Trondheim, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Hedeby, Shell hits 1
CL Kattegat
Daylight exposes the sad plight of the CVL Ibuki, the only operational Japanese aircraft carrier. It is sent empty on a suicide mission to the south, hoping to draw Allied attention away from the landing beaches. It succeeds, to some extent...
Day Time Surface Combat, near Utsonomiya at 115,61, Range 16,000 Yards
Japanese Ships
CVL Ibuki, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
Allied Ships
BB Iowa
BB New Jersey
BB Wisconsin
BB Missouri, Shell hits 1
DD Drexler
DD English
DD Hugh W. Hadley
DD Hyman
DD Maddox
DD Mansfield
In the air, it is pure exasperation for me. Despite marshalling hundreds of aircraft and doing everything in my power to maximize co-ordination, Japanese strikes are at best fragmented and at worst utterly random. LRCAP over the invasion hexes helps somewhat, but Allied CAP simply is too dense. Despite aircraft attacking from 39k down to 100ft, almost every strike is completely mauled long before it gets to see Allied ships. In the occasional scenario that planes get through, flak tends to murder the rest. Frustrating.
In total, IJ air losses are 1767 for the day, against 405 Allied.
3 kamikaze hits are reported on Allied CVE's.
Allied 4E bombers smash into Tokyo's airfields, smashing the already fragile groups concentrated there for the strike against the Allied fleet. Strikes are conducted elsewhere on Japan, netting a total of 501 aircraft destroyed on the ground.
Not limiting themselves to airbases, 4E bombers focus on the invasion beaches, carpet bombing Japanese fortifications.
Morning Air attack on 1st Ind.Tank Brigade, at 114,61 (Chiba)
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes
Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 8
J2M5 Jack x 24
J7W1 Shinden x 10
N1K5-J George x 21
Ki-84r Frank x 11
Ki-94-II x 12
Ki-201 Karyu x 2
Allied aircraft
Hellcat F.II x 2
B-29-25 Superfort x 258
B-29B Superfort x 20
FM-2 Wildcat x 2
F4U-1A Corsair x 7
F4U-1D Corsair x 18
F6F-3 Hellcat x 9
F6F-5 Hellcat x 22
F8F-1 Bearcat x 1
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
J2M5 Jack: 2 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 4 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-94-II: 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Hellcat F.II: 1 destroyed
B-29-25 Superfort: 8 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 damaged
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed
F8F-1 Bearcat: 1 destroyed
Japanese ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 31 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 71 (1 destroyed, 70 disabled)
Several more raids, smaller in nature, followed this.
The end result was that by the time the Allies attacked in Chiba, the Japanese defenders were severely disrupted.
Ground combat at Chiba (114,61)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 92639 troops, 1368 guns, 1871 vehicles, Assault Value = 3302
Defending force 24715 troops, 286 guns, 769 vehicles, Assault Value = 881
Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4
Allied adjusted assault: 1315
Japanese adjusted defense: 268
Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 4)
Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 4
Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:
Japanese ground losses:
4273 casualties reported
Squads: 33 destroyed, 374 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 130 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 49 disabled
Guns lost 113 (18 destroyed, 95 disabled)
Vehicles lost 191 (46 destroyed, 145 disabled)
Allied ground losses:
1794 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 193 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 62 disabled
Guns lost 47 (2 destroyed, 45 disabled)
Vehicles lost 62 (11 destroyed, 51 disabled)
While fresh reinforcements are being moved in rapdily to the region, given the open terrain and massive preponderance of Allied air and naval power and near complete freedom of action to employ it, the outcome is in doubt.
The only glimer of hope lies in the fact that the Allied beachhead at Utsonomiya seems to be contained, for the moment...
Whith such catastrophic losses in the air, the back of Japanese air power is firmly broken, and while the replacement pilots and planes exist to mend it, the requsite supply to mobilize these resources is lacking. Only Tokyo has any more than 20k supply, and replacing some 1700 planes will quickly lead to massive shortages in essential war products throughout the Empire...
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ElvisDaKing
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:28 pm
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
/yeah, biggest drawback on the J7W ... low climb rate ... coupled with high SR .... for me I have to be very thoughtful in using them.ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The 94 and J7W seem to work best in tandem. Shinden low and the 94 high. If I had to make a choice, I'd go 94, but simply because Loka has decided that they're that good he needs to shut down the production with 4E strikes on the factories.
For IJAF, late war fighters best couple seems to be Ki-94 II / Ki-83
For IJN, J7W is the fastest piston engine fighter and i am considering also the A7M3-J because of its huge firepower (6x30mm) despite being a bit slow.
But i have rarely seen any discussion about the A7M3-J performance....
(re. I will not build rocket/turbojet plane because of their too high SR and because of engine R&D/production optimization)
'To my point, in war, there s just one attractive thing : the victory Parade... What sucks, it s all the things before.... We should get the enlist payroll and do the parade right away, before that it get totally screwed up'
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk
Un Taxi pour Tobrouk
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
I generally do NOT build the 3-J model because of lack of armament. 30mm has only acc=15. And 2 of the cannon shoot up. It is really a NF that did NOT get the designation (and accompanying bonuses).ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
/yeah, biggest drawback on the J7W ... low climb rate ... coupled with high SR .... for me I have to be very thoughtful in using them.ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The 94 and J7W seem to work best in tandem. Shinden low and the 94 high. If I had to make a choice, I'd go 94, but simply because Loka has decided that they're that good he needs to shut down the production with 4E strikes on the factories.
For IJAF, late war fighters best couple seems to be Ki-94 II / Ki-83
For IJN, J7W is the fastest piston engine fighter and i am considering also the A7M3-J because of its huge firepower (6x30mm) despite being a bit slow.
But i have rarely seen any discussion about the A7M3-J performance....
(re. I will not build rocket/turbojet plane because of their too high SR and because of engine R&D/production optimization)
Yes, the cannon do good damage if they hit, and against bombers I have found it to be effective. But, against late model fighters, the A7M2 I find far superior.
Pax
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
The Ki83/94 gives the IJA a good flexibility on both defense and offense. The 94 in particular is an excellent airframe, but the 83 is just so damn flexible.ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
/yeah, biggest drawback on the J7W ... low climb rate ... coupled with high SR .... for me I have to be very thoughtful in using them.ORIGINAL: mind_messing
The 94 and J7W seem to work best in tandem. Shinden low and the 94 high. If I had to make a choice, I'd go 94, but simply because Loka has decided that they're that good he needs to shut down the production with 4E strikes on the factories.
For IJAF, late war fighters best couple seems to be Ki-94 II / Ki-83
For IJN, J7W is the fastest piston engine fighter and i am considering also the A7M3-J because of its huge firepower (6x30mm) despite being a bit slow.
But i have rarely seen any discussion about the A7M3-J performance....
(re. I will not build rocket/turbojet plane because of their too high SR and because of engine R&D/production optimization)
The Sam vs Sam J is an interesting choice, but I think the only workable choice is the Sam, for the following reasons:
- Sam J arrives 1/46, Sam is 9/45. You can move the Sam to early '45 where you can do more good than if you move the Sam J to mid '45. This is really the key point, Sam factories might actually get a decent production run, Sam J likely wont.
- Sam has overall sightly better performance characteristics than the Sam J in nearly every area bar speed.
- Sam has SR of 2, Sam J 3.
Compared to the J7W1, it's a no brainer for the J7W1. It is competetive with every late war Allied aircraft in speed, which the Sam J just can't match. For the effort you'd make to the Sam J, you'd be better going for the J7W1.
To be honest, a more interesting debate is the J7W1 versus the J8M1...
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
The recent Allied landing has got me thinking about air co-ordination versus naval targets in a target rich environment. Anyone have any advice or pointers on how to make air groups co-ordinate against TF's? I have no issue getting good co-ordination versus land targets, but against shipping it eludes me...
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
... against shipping it eludes me...
+1
Glad to know it's not just me, I've been bitterly disapointed with fragmented strikes against massed Allied CV CAP.
Mixing up attack altitudes leads to the occasional leaker getting through, but it's never often enough to make massed attacks remotely viable. If attacking raids would actually co-ordinate on occasion it might be a different story. Defending CAP has no issue smashing ten seperate raids of twenty planes strung out over various altitudes, but it might struggle with two seperate raids seperated by the entire altitude band (the assumption being that it's possible to actually get them to co-ordinate well enough). Or so I hope, more testing is neeed.
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
When I did my kami testing against the Death Star (remember this is with +2000 AC on attack), my attacks pretty much ended up one of two ways:
1 VERY LARGE attack followed by a few straggler attacks, maybe 7 - 8 of about 20 AC each.
OR
~100 20 AC attacks
I never seemed to have any control on this, but after a while, I did n't worry about it. Why?
If the attack is big enough to pierce the Death Star CAP, it will do so either enmass or through the 100 pinpricks. What happens is that the last 20 - 30 attacks go in against no CAP, only AA. And the last 5 attacks have almost AA against them as the AA batteries get depleted. My hit percentages were very close, to the point it was not of concern to me. Losses also were almost identical.
Note the key assumption: If I had enough on attack to begin with, IOW, if I try to attack the Deathstar with 750AC, it doesn't matter how they go in, even all 750 enmass will not get through the CAP and 30 separate attacks of 25AC also will not outlast the CAP ... simply not enough aircraft on attack. Numbers do matter ...
1 VERY LARGE attack followed by a few straggler attacks, maybe 7 - 8 of about 20 AC each.
OR
~100 20 AC attacks
I never seemed to have any control on this, but after a while, I did n't worry about it. Why?
If the attack is big enough to pierce the Death Star CAP, it will do so either enmass or through the 100 pinpricks. What happens is that the last 20 - 30 attacks go in against no CAP, only AA. And the last 5 attacks have almost AA against them as the AA batteries get depleted. My hit percentages were very close, to the point it was not of concern to me. Losses also were almost identical.
Note the key assumption: If I had enough on attack to begin with, IOW, if I try to attack the Deathstar with 750AC, it doesn't matter how they go in, even all 750 enmass will not get through the CAP and 30 separate attacks of 25AC also will not outlast the CAP ... simply not enough aircraft on attack. Numbers do matter ...
Pax
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
... against shipping it eludes me...
+1
Glad to know it's not just me, I've been bitterly disapointed with fragmented strikes against massed Allied CV CAP.
Mixing up attack altitudes leads to the occasional leaker getting through, but it's never often enough to make massed attacks remotely viable. If attacking raids would actually co-ordinate on occasion it might be a different story. Defending CAP has no issue smashing ten seperate raids of twenty planes strung out over various altitudes, but it might struggle with two seperate raids seperated by the entire altitude band (the assumption being that it's possible to actually get them to co-ordinate well enough). Or so I hope, more testing is neeed.
You really need the LBA-KB 1-2 punch combo, but I'm afraid you don't have the KB anymore. Usually the LBA always goes in first and takes it on the chin, then if your lucky the KB launches a mega strike that manages to get a good % of the bombers through. In my experience its better to have everything set to the same alt to increase the chance of a larger coordinated strike. Also have at least 2 escorts for every bomber, and that any good fighter pilots are replaced by cannon fodder as they are only there to soak up bullets anyway.
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mind_messing
- Posts: 3394
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
ORIGINAL: Miller
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
+1
Glad to know it's not just me, I've been bitterly disapointed with fragmented strikes against massed Allied CV CAP.
Mixing up attack altitudes leads to the occasional leaker getting through, but it's never often enough to make massed attacks remotely viable. If attacking raids would actually co-ordinate on occasion it might be a different story. Defending CAP has no issue smashing ten seperate raids of twenty planes strung out over various altitudes, but it might struggle with two seperate raids seperated by the entire altitude band (the assumption being that it's possible to actually get them to co-ordinate well enough). Or so I hope, more testing is neeed.
You really need the LBA-KB 1-2 punch combo, but I'm afraid you don't have the KB anymore. Usually the LBA always goes in first and takes it on the chin, then if your lucky the KB launches a mega strike that manages to get a good % of the bombers through. In my experience its better to have everything set to the same alt to increase the chance of a larger coordinated strike. Also have at least 2 escorts for every bomber, and that any good fighter pilots are replaced by cannon fodder as they are only there to soak up bullets anyway.
The KB co-ordination versus naval targets is day and night when compared to LBA co-ordination against naval targets. One would think it would be easier to co-ordinate a strike of several hundred aircraft from static, land-based airbases that floating ones, but evidently not.
I think you might be right regarding consistant altitude settings. I'd hoped that playing to the extremes would benefit the attacking Japanese more than Allied CAP. It may be the case that 4 groups at 15k may be better than 2 groups at 1k and 2 groups at 30k, even if one would think that bouncing Allied CAP up and down altitudes would be better.
It's an interesting learning experience, even if it is sometimes exceptionally frustrating.
RE: The Chinese Are Coming!
[&o][&o][&o]ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It's an interesting learning experience, even if it is sometimes exceptionally frustrating.
Pax