Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[rustysi]

I was at Chungking by March '42 and it had fallen by October.

OK, that's quite a while. BTW how did you get there so soon?

[rustysi]

I-17 found US CV TF East and put 2 torpedoes into Bunker Hill! Banzai!!!

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I did this recently, and captured Chungking. Honestly, I'm wishing I'd closed it. I only got ~110 VPs for dying Chinese when Chungking fell, out of 100K+ troops. I'm now spending weeks (months?) chasing down Chinese in the woods and plains.

I wish I'd closed all the sides.

That is an important consideration, might not be worth it then if it causes a prolonged hue and cry throughout China.

I believe this we the worst day for the IJN Sub Service since the war began. I sent subs after known Allied CV TFs knowing the toll would be high. I lost I-170 and I-185 from the escorts of US CV TF East. I also lost I-157 from the escorts of the Allied TF near Darwin.

Yeah, the happy time for the IJN's submarine service is long over. It might be best to pull off the non-Glen subs and keep them in reserve to sortie against high value Allied targets - namely CV/CVE and amphibs in support of an invasion.

From my experience, one torpedo on a CVE (plus the decent chance of fuel/ammo explosion) tends to cause them some hurt. Plus, they're big, slow and usually escorting amphib ships. Keeping the non-Glen subs on regular patrols is rarely a good rate of return into '43 and '44 IMO. Sure, they might sink an xAK or two, but the DE's, PF's, or other specialized Allied ASW platforms tend to kill them reliably.

Plus, there's the VP argument to be made as well. Allied CVE's are around 80-90 VP's. IJN subs are around 6-10 VP's. Sinking one CVE is a pretty decent return for a half dozen IJN subs, and your subs are going to die anyways, so may as well go all in on the big game...

That said, the Glen subs are invaluable for recon and naval pickets - preserve them!

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I was at Chungking by March '42 and it had fallen by October.

OK, that's quite a while. BTW how did you get there so soon?

Railed the excess Manchuria AV and arty to Wuchang, blasted from Changsha to Chungking. The CEA forces went via Sian and swung in from the North-East.

[Bif1961]

CVE= Cumbustible, Vulnerable, and Expendable

[Mike Solli]

John, some comments...

I have an open hex for the Chungking garrison to retreat into. It's a clear hex that is surrounded so they wouldn't be able to move out of there and would have no supply available. I could bomb them into oblivion rather easily. But, if there's no retreat available, when they're pushed out of Chungking, they might just surrender enmasse? Not sure about that. Either way, that army isn't going to go anywhere.

I understand and agree that the Japanese sub heyday is over. All three of those subs were chasing US carriers when they were sunk. I did put a couple of torpedoes into Bunker Hill the next day. It appears she can only move 4-5 hexes a day and I have her spotted. I have 5 subs moving in on her and will eventually catch her. She has 1 DD escort. Intel says she has 25 fighters and 36 bombers aboard. If I can sink her, that'll make the effort worth it in lost subs. Those 3 subs cost me 15 VPs and none were Glen subs. How much is an Essex class worth?

[ny59giants]

She has 1 DD escort.

He should have 4 DDs and if the CV can still conduct air ops, I would put the bombers on 100% ASW.

[Mike Solli]

I absolutely agree with you, Michael. I've had intel on her since she parted ways with the main TF and I've seen only the 2 ships. The most recent turn shows details on planes (confirming it really is Bunker Hill) and still only one other ship. I don't remember if the intel states it's a DD.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

John, some comments...

I have an open hex for the Chungking garrison to retreat into. It's a clear hex that is surrounded so they wouldn't be able to move out of there and would have no supply available. I could bomb them into oblivion rather easily. But, if there's no retreat available, when they're pushed out of Chungking, they might just surrender enmasse? Not sure about that. Either way, that army isn't going to go anywhere.

That seems the best solution; I've not tested so we'll find out together!

I understand and agree that the Japanese sub heyday is over. All three of those subs were chasing US carriers when they were sunk. I did put a couple of torpedoes into Bunker Hill the next day. It appears she can only move 4-5 hexes a day and I have her spotted. I have 5 subs moving in on her and will eventually catch her. She has 1 DD escort. Intel says she has 25 fighters and 36 bombers aboard. If I can sink her, that'll make the effort worth it in lost subs. Those 3 subs cost me 15 VPs and none were Glen subs. How much is an Essex class worth?

I was thinking more about the I-15 off San Fran - snooping there doesn't get you much intel in the grand scheme of things as San Fran is always a busy port in both direction. IMO the big Allied repair yards (Sydney & PH) in this case are better bets for more tangible intel, as you'll be likely to get an idea of when Allied warships are pulled back for their upgrades and surged out when they're complete.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I understand and agree that the Japanese sub heyday is over. All three of those subs were chasing US carriers when they were sunk. I did put a couple of torpedoes into Bunker Hill the next day. It appears she can only move 4-5 hexes a day and I have her spotted. I have 5 subs moving in on her and will eventually catch her. She has 1 DD escort. Intel says she has 25 fighters and 36 bombers aboard. If I can sink her, that'll make the effort worth it in lost subs. Those 3 subs cost me 15 VPs and none were Glen subs. How much is an Essex class worth?

I was thinking more about the I-15 off San Fran - snooping there doesn't get you much intel in the grand scheme of things as San Fran is always a busy port in both direction. IMO the big Allied repair yards (Sydney & PH) in this case are better bets for more tangible intel, as you'll be likely to get an idea of when Allied warships are pulled back for their upgrades and surged out when they're complete.

Ahh, gotcha. I usually keep a couple snooping Pearl, but I rarely get any useful intel. Hadn't thought of Sydney. I'm move a couple down there.

[Mike Solli]

Here's what I see:

There's another Japanese sub under the "bombers 36". Also, the Allied TF to the east is 4 ships heading east, and intel says one is a DD. No real clue what's going on with that.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

John, some comments...

I have an open hex for the Chungking garrison to retreat into. It's a clear hex that is surrounded so they wouldn't be able to move out of there and would have no supply available. I could bomb them into oblivion rather easily. But, if there's no retreat available, when they're pushed out of Chungking, they might just surrender enmasse? Not sure about that. Either way, that army isn't going to go anywhere.

I understand and agree that the Japanese sub heyday is over. All three of those subs were chasing US carriers when they were sunk. I did put a couple of torpedoes into Bunker Hill the next day. It appears she can only move 4-5 hexes a day and I have her spotted. I have 5 subs moving in on her and will eventually catch her. She has 1 DD escort. Intel says she has 25 fighters and 36 bombers aboard. If I can sink her, that'll make the effort worth it in lost subs. Those 3 subs cost me 15 VPs and none were Glen subs. How much is an Essex class worth?

Yes, they will just surrender en masse.

But not necessarily the day the city falls.

An Essex is ~360 VPs IIRC (3 * capacity + durability, which is around 100 IIRC).

[dasboot1960]

My curiosity was running along with rustysi here (Chunking by October); is it just a generally accepted 'house rule' that all Kwantung army units should be bought out with PP, or should that only apply to forces loading out for non-mainland destinations? (I'm still trying to figure the niceties here, but I am involved in a 'no holds barred' game)

[Mike Solli]

We have a house rule that Kwantung units must be bought out. And none of this buy the HQ thing either. Every unit that left there was paid for with PPs.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960
My curiosity was running along with rustysi here (Chunking by October); is it just a generally accepted 'house rule' that all Kwantung army units should be bought out with PP, or should that only apply to forces loading out for non-mainland destinations? (I'm still trying to figure the niceties here, but I am involved in a 'no holds barred' game)

Widely used house rule regarding PP buying out is as follows:
Restricted LCUs should be bought out with PPs into unrestricted commands before crossing any national borders, Thai units excluded. Most of the time this also assumes that LCUs should be bought out into land commands and not air ones, because the latter are everywhere as unrestricted subcommands and thus often allow paying 1/4 of PPs instead of full price. National borders are visible on the map.

[Mike Solli]

Actually, our house rule is pretty much what GetAssista said. So, if I want to move Chinese command units to, say, Burma, they need to be bought out as well. We don't have the exclusion for Thai units though. My Thai units have been garrisons the whole war in Thailand playing the Thai version of pinochle. Not a single one has fired a shot in anger. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

26 Nov 43

Sub War

No action other than the 5 subs (at least) trying to chase down the wounded Bunker Hill.

5 Fleet

The troops at Umnak are still trying to thaw out. [8|]

Some Jills, Judies and Sallies bombed the US troops at Umnak again.

4 Fleet

US CV TF East (minus Bunker Hill) is retiring east. That TF is pretty heavily depleted in aircraft. I'm letting them go.

US CV TF South (Enterprise, Hornet, Wolverine, Gettysburg) launched another attack against Roi-Namur with full deck loads: 103 Dauntlesses, 35 Helldivers, 72 Avengers escorted by 52 Hellcats. It appears he has his fighters set to 50% CAP. Roi-Namur's damage is 20-85-99. The airfield is definitely shut down, but there's only about a dozen damaged planes there.

Mili's airfield is up to level 3. Soon he'll be able to station 2E bombers there and isolate the Marshalls. But, he'll most likely have a decision to make with them: keep Roi-Namur damaged or work over the rest. Either way, I'll eventually pull my fighters out of the area and write it off. No reason for the fighter drain any more with no real possibility of a success worth writing home about. This battle was worth the expenditures. I trashed the air groups of 4 CVs and badly damaged an Essex class with the real possibility of sinking her. This should require that carrier group to have some down time.

Unfortunately, US CV TF South is still at full strength. It appears that I've probably burned through most or all of the reserve aircraft so new losses will begin to wear it down. Unfortunately, I don't have the fighter strength in the Marshalls to do that. I'll have to rely on op losses and the occasional flak loss to do it, which is unlikely. I guess op losses are a real possibility now because those aircraft have been in combat for a week or so and their fatigue has to be creeping up.

SE Fleet

Well, the long awaited invasion of Aitape has occurred, using the 8 Aussie Division. KB3 moved to 7 hexes of Aitape which allowed the entire load of Judies and Jills to be available to launch. It wasn't meant to be, however. Only 1 deckload of aircraft launched, and that was fragmented. Unryu was the CV and her air units were trashed. She had 36 A6M5s, 15 Judies and 12 Jills. Ted had 22 P-47D2s on LRCAP. I wonder how many he used to get that many to actually LRCAP. [X(] Anyway, they never lost a plane. The first attack was 7 Judies escorted by 12 Zeros. One Judy and 5 Zeros survived. The second attack was 12 Jills escorted by 19 Zeros. Eight Jills and 4 Zeros survived. Actually, flak got most of the bombers, but they attacked (unsuccessfully) BBs Arizona and Mississippi and CL Raleigh. They didn't even bother to go after the APAs. [:@]

That was surprising and disturbing. I had totally fooled Ted. He told me he had no idea my carriers were there. He said he probably wouldn't have attacked had he known. I was really pissed that less than a quarter of my bombers flew. Anyway, here are the losses:

Zero: 26 planes, 10 KIA, 10 WIA
Judy: 6 planes, 4 KIA, 2 WIA
Jill: 4 planes, 4 KIA

I'm withdrawing the carriers. They had their shot and blew it. There's really no reason to stick around with probable enemy subs in the area. Aitape is doomed (a division against a beat up 1 & 1/3 Naval Guards). Those Thunderbolts really did the job. Intel did say they lost 7 op losses, so they're most likely reduced but still tough opponents.

I am aware that CAP will trash escorts every time, but I'm going to withdraw the A6M5 from carrier (and frontline) service. That lack of armor is telling. I had them on carriers (maybe a third of my carriers) for their range. Not worth it any more.

SRA

Nothing to report. The CVLs disappeared, I think to the SE of Darwin. I have a Glen sub searching with a couple more ready to attack.

Ted told me he had no intention of invading Saumlaki. He was just hunting for some shipping he spotted in the area. He said he almost died when he saw carriers down there. When his CVLs returned, he had lost track of my carriers and thought I had sent them north to guard against the Aitape invasion. He knew I had some carriers in the Aleutians and figured I had no others. He never knew the existence of KB3 (the 3 Unryus). I think he still is not sure of my actual carrier strength.

Burma

I shot down a Hurricane over Chittagong.

I've changed my strategy here. I have 4x Helen sentai in this AO. They were doing a nice job of keeping the airfields at Akyab, Cox's Bazaar and Chittagong suppressed. They're now going to focus on keeping Ledo suppressed.

I have some 6-7 sentai of fighters, Tojos and Franks, 1 Oscar and 1 George. I usually use 2 of them to sweep two of the 3 coastal airfields and a Frank to sweep Ledo. I'll still use 2 to sweep the coastal airfields and the Frank to sweep Ledo, but I'll use the Oscar to escort the Helens to bomb Ledo. I see some 3 dozen auxiliary aircraft at Ledo, obviously transports. I'll bet they still are sending a little supply to Chungking. That's over.

China

Bombers destroyed 16 and disabled 82 squads. The final division will arrive tomorrow and the next deliberate assault will go in the day after.

Once the deliberate assault goes to ~1:2 odds or better, I'll combine both assault forces and do a shock attack to do the garrison in. It was 1:5 on the last assault with 1 remaining fort. Stopping that dribble of supply will help a lot. I know he gets some 180 supply a turn from the LI, but that should be all.

And before anyone asks, we have a house rule that does not allow strategic bombing in China.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement: MTB G-158

I pulled Zuikaku out of pier side repairs. She'll leave Ulithi in 3 days. Her damage is: 3-51(51)-19(19)-0. She'll be in the shop for awhile.

Akagi is 1 day out of Kobe. Her damage is 3-7(7)-0-0.

Soryu is repairing and refitting at Kobe. She'll be finished in 14 days. Her damage is 17-14(14)-0-0.

[ny59giants]

Why not assign some of your CV Zeros to sweep "hopefully" ahead of your strike?

Did you have either DBs or TBs with 10% NavS? For some reason this often helps with strikes.

Regardless of which side I'm playing, I have CV capable groups nearby so I can make them either fighter or strike heavy, as needed. As Allies, I tend to go with extra Marine fighters in '42 and withdraw the TBs for training.

Did you have some sort of NavS with arcs set over the base? Anybody on night NavS to help raise the always important DL?

Of course, don't overlook "mr weather." [:D]

[Uncivil Engineer]

I have an open hex for the Chungking garrison to retreat into. It's a clear hex that is surrounded so they wouldn't be able to move out of there and would have no supply available. I could bomb them into oblivion rather easily. But, if there's no retreat available, when they're pushed out of Chungking, they might just surrender enmasse? Not sure about that. Either way, that army isn't going to go anywhere.

If there is no retreat available that gets closer to a source of supply, then the units surrender instead. It doesn't matter if the adjacent hex is available/open/empty, if a supply route cannot be traced from there they are toast.

I agree with someone's comment that in the case of Chungking simply occupy the hex from all 6 sides and let the Chinese attack you.

[mind_messing]

@ Mike,

I strongly caution against using a shock attack at Chungking. The deliberate attacks are always bloody enough without giving the defending Chinese an extra fire phase. Supplied or unsupplied, they're still hurt.

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

My curiosity was running along with rustysi here (Chunking by October); is it just a generally accepted 'house rule' that all Kwantung army units should be bought out with PP, or should that only apply to forces loading out for non-mainland destinations? (I'm still trying to figure the niceties here, but I am involved in a 'no holds barred' game)

Loka (my opponent) and I decided on a no holds barred game. I don't regret it in the slightest. I'll never play with house rules again.

[rustysi]

5 subs (at least) trying to chase down the wounded Bunker Hill.

Find 'em, chase 'em, sink 'em.[:D]

Seriously though...

China

Bombers destroyed 16 and disabled 82 squads.

Instead of this, what about hitting the AF. You'll essentially stop any fortification efforts, cost him supply, and if you can shut it down, Ledo is more or less a moot point. He could still air drop, but I don't recall if that's in range.

In addition you need to start your artillery bombardments again. If its taking too long for the repay just set the times to zero temporarily. It really needs to be done.

Why not assign some of your CV Zeros to sweep "hopefully" ahead of your strike?

You can't 'sweep' your own bases. Oh, you can set it, but nothing will happen.

Did you have either DBs or TBs with 10% NavS? For some reason this often helps with strikes.

Regardless of which side I'm playing, I have CV capable groups nearby so I can make them either fighter or strike heavy, as needed. As Allies, I tend to go with extra Marine fighters in '42 and withdraw the TBs for training.

Did you have some sort of NavS with arcs set over the base? Anybody on night NavS to help raise the always important DL?

Of course, don't overlook "mr weather."

+1

I strongly caution against using a shock attack at Chungking.

Not sure that its a good idea either.