M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet)

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
What "if" the Soviets don't retreat?

I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
What "if" the Soviets don't retreat?

I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D]

I have no lesson, "at the moment", just a question what would any German player do if the Soviets hugged them. Granted the average experience of a Soviet unit the first 17 turns is in 20ish range for those turns(many starting in the low teens). So seems a pretty easy answer since "hasty" attacking everything in site with German armor/moto is the thing to do with extremely low loses and high loses to the Soviets. But what do others do?

On the other hand I have seen too many times retreating as the Soviets ends up worse than if you stayed. When the Soviets retreat the Germans can pick and choose their prey, along with an entry point. At least when the Soviets stay close they can semi dictate (extremely small) a defense. Forcing the Germans to use up PZ/Moto units MP's to move those units if the Infantry isn't close at hand OR the wrong mixture of infantry in the area. There is a science to how much German infantry you need to accomplish certain things. If that is not adhered to the German player is going to be hampered.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
What "if" the Soviets don't retreat?

I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D]

I have no lesson, "at the moment", just a question what would any German player do if the Soviets hugged them. Granted the average experience of a Soviet unit the first 17 turns is in 20ish range for those turns(many starting in the low teens). So seems a pretty easy answer since "hasty" attacking everything in site with German armor/moto is the thing to do with extremely low loses and high loses to the Soviets. But what do others do?

On the other hand I have seen too many times retreating as the Soviets ends up worse than if you stayed. When the Soviets retreat the Germans can pick and choose their prey, along with an entry point. At least when the Soviets stay close they can semi dictate (extremely small) a defense. Forcing the Germans to use up PZ/Moto units MP's to move those units if the Infantry isn't close at hand OR the wrong mixture of infantry in the area. There is a science to how much German infantry you need to accomplish certain things. If that is not adhered to the German player is going to be hampered.

As Chaos45 said long ago in a post, I don't remember the post but it is ingrained in my head. The post said something on the lines of, "The Soviets are fighting more against the German MP's than you are against German units" That is the whole reason for this question. I know that is how I have been playing my games along with never putting more than one unit per hex (yes, I messed up and stacked on one of my turns and I paid the price. I only stack now if I want to hold something)

[MarauderPL]

I think an answer to the question on the "hugging" Soviets is to create a situation where the Germans have infantry up front and mobile formations in the rear. With wide enough front and HQBU in the pocket you can go for a large encirclement. You basically try to recreate the T1. There is no need to hurry - dealing a KO blow is worth spending some turns on.

The Soviets need to be very flexible in my opinion - both constant withdrawal and constant fight is a suicide. The operational plan needs to adapt to the current situation and needs to be reassessed every turn and in every area. Additionally, in the current state of the game when playing the no bonus ruleset, I suspect the Soviet player needs to set up planned sacrifices of his units (armies) just to win time. Prolonged fights to re-close a medium sized pocket is very time consuming for the Germans and disallows HQBUs and fuel refills for mobile units forming the spearhead. I would look for opportunities there (but have not tested it in any way - just a speculation).

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

I think an answer to the question on the "hugging" Soviets is to create a situation where the Germans have infantry up front and mobile formations in the rear. With wide enough front and HQBU in the pocket you can go for a large encirclement. You basically try to recreate the T1. There is no need to hurry - dealing a KO blow is worth spending some turns on.

The Soviets need to be very flexible in my opinion - both constant withdrawal and constant fight is a suicide. The operational plan needs to adapt to the current situation and needs to be reassessed every turn and in every area. Additionally, in the current state of the game when playing the no bonus ruleset, I suspect the Soviet player needs to set up planned sacrifices of his units (armies) just to win time. Prolonged fights to re-close a medium sized pocket is very time consuming for the Germans and disallows HQBUs and fuel refills for mobile units forming the spearhead. I would look for opportunities there (but have not tested it in any way - just a speculation).

I agree with you. You have to play the ebb and flow of the Axis's HQ buildup. You have to either know or best guess these ebb & flows. On the sacrifice I concur too. I know I try and force feed the "crappy" Soviet divisions to the Germans keeping the good stuff in the 3rd or 4th line. But yeah this is right on par how I think too.

[M60A3TTS]

I wanted to take some time before posting a few thoughts on this game.

Marauder played the game at the level I would expect from an experienced player. The giant pocket around Moscow is something that was unavoidable unless I had willingly retreated in the prior turn which was an option. I had pulled the key industry out already, so what remained to be lost would not have been devastating. But I have seen how even after Moscow is surrounded, the Axis player can just keep rolling east with the logistics available, and there seemed little point.

Many of my units coming on line as reinforcements were in the mid to high 20's and morale in the upper 30's. These couldn't stop things from sliding quickly and though I may have made a mistake or two along the way, there was a feeling of helplessness knowing that there was no real way to stop this.

I posted for another game, limiting the southern Axis T1 movement to 30MP as an attempt to bring some balance back. I don't think any future patches, if there are any of significance, will address this issue. I see Stef and S-T in their game are going in a similar direction. That is the sort of thing which is needed now. Even a Soviet +1 and regular blizzard does not address the level of imbalance that has been seen now in the recent AARs. The whole Lvov pocket debate is as old as the game. I would maintain it is a sensible solution to just get rid of it for the following reasons.

1. It does not touch the basic game settings, so the Soviet side doesn't have to be given an advantage to all their units.
2. Rail capacity is still the same, and so the Soviet player is still going to not have enough to get every unit it wants to safety.
3. What fuel the German panzers don't spend in the south on Turn 1 will be available to them the next turn, so to a degree they may be able to make up for the limited movement on T1 quickly.
4. It forces the Axis player to make real choices rather than follow a cookie-cutter template. Does an Axis player make use of the full 50MP by having armor of AGC go the traditional route, or does it move a certain amount to the south and take a smaller pocket? In this way, I believe people would see some real variation here.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Many of my units coming on line as reinforcements were in the mid to high 20's and morale in the upper 30's. These couldn't stop things from sliding quickly and though I may have made a mistake or two along the way, there was a feeling of helplessness knowing that there was no real way to stop this.

There were less than 15 Division with experience of 20 to low 30s that I counted that came online for the Soviets. Most of those were in the South. Of these like you said their Morale is horrid being in the 20's and 30's. I had numerous divisions starting with 7 experience across the board and even after a few turns they are worthless except for a MP speedbump

[chaos45]

Interesting been saying for months now the extended Lvov move is one of the big problems, esp when you add in port re-supply in the south-- this is an easy fix for the patch team to just add more fort units or move some of the soviet units more east in the south....another option is limit AGS MP on T1.

The patch team has slowed down Soviet reinforcement units to much with the added delay timer, and made their exp/morale much to crappy to contend with how fast the Germans can advance. This has been an issue good German players have been exploiting for several patches now.

Esp with the experience change to 1 per turn, these incoming soviet units not only arrive later than they used to but now also have absolutely no combat value by the time you have to use them.