SU OOB - I'm confused

Paul Goodman · Post by **Paul Goodman** » Tue May 29, 2001 8:59 pm

T-34 M42 is available Oct 42
T-34 M43 is available Oct 42

Would I be correct to assume that M42 availability should be Oct 41? If not, what?

T-34 M43 has 4 rounds of subcaliber ammo. Is there any means to fire this stuff when you want to? What controls this?

Also, the oob reflects the superiority of the big cats in terms of optics, penetration and armor to the various T-34's and the KV-1/85 and IS-I and II. However, it does not reflect the fact that Soviets built these at approximately 3 times the rate that the Germans did (for this I threw out 1942 when Germans built nearly nothing). It does seem that if the oob accurately models the superiority of the German models, then the Soviet models should be realistically cheaper, no more than one third the cost for comparable models. I realize the comparison is a little difficult, as the T-34M4X is 3 to 4 tons heavier than the PzIV, but the T-34/85 is much lighter than the Panther and that the Stalins fit in between the Tiger and the Panther in size. I think that 3 to 1 actually gives the Germans the benefit of the doubt, as at least some production must go to the West.

Paul

steel · Post by **steel** » Tue May 29, 2001 9:52 pm

Originally posted by Paul Goodman:
T-34 M42 is available Oct 42
T-34 M43 is available Oct 42

Would I be correct to assume that M42 availability should be Oct 41? If not, what?

T-34 M43 has 4 rounds of subcaliber ammo. Is there any means to fire this stuff when you want to? What controls this?

Also, the oob reflects the superiority of the big cats in terms of optics, penetration and armor to the various T-34's and the KV-1/85 and IS-I and II. However, it does not reflect the fact that Soviets built these at approximately 3 times the rate that the Germans did (for this I threw out 1942 when Germans built nearly nothing). It does seem that if the oob accurately models the superiority of the German models, then the Soviet models should be realistically cheaper, no more than one third the cost for comparable models. I realize the comparison is a little difficult, as the T-34M4X is 3 to 4 tons heavier than the PzIV, but the T-34/85 is much lighter than the Panther and that the Stalins fit in between the Tiger and the Panther in size. I think that 3 to 1 actually gives the Germans the benefit of the doubt, as at least some production must go to the West.

Paul

Yes ! I have your side.

Why Su equipment is so expencive vs Ge.When play Ge vs Su, there is no way to win Su side expect more battle points give Soviet player.OOB detailed is not very accurate via
Soviet.

Can somebody do something and correct this kind foolines.Cheapier units and muts earlier
year some pantzers (T34,Su-85,JS1-4,T44)

This mistakes is been very long time SPWAW.When SPWAW first time came out,then there was right cost Ge vs Su, but now days
German are higher rankin list, I think (Very sad if some country get bonus points).

Steel

Lars Remmen · Post by **Lars Remmen** » Tue May 29, 2001 11:15 pm

Originally posted by steel:

Yes ! I have your side.

Why Su equipment is so expencive vs Ge.When play Ge vs Su, there is no way to win Su side expect more battle points give Soviet player.OOB detailed is not very accurate via
Soviet.

Can somebody do something and correct this kind foolines.Cheapier units and muts earlier
year some pantzers (T34,Su-85,JS1-4,T44)

This mistakes is been very long time SPWAW.When SPWAW first time came out,then there was right cost Ge vs Su, but now days
German are higher rankin list, I think (Very sad if some country get bonus points).

Steel

Hello,

I think the point values in the OOB's are calculated using formula accounting for armour, gun effectiveness, speed and so forth. Thus the point cost is really a measure of how effective the armoured unit is and not a measure of how many were produced. One can use battle points in the prefrences to simulate that.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Tue May 29, 2001 11:24 pm

Lars, you are correct. There is indeed a formula. This same topic was under a discussion last summer...I then spent some time testing and coined up one formula, which was then modified by Matrix guys and taken into use. Though I'm not sure how much is still left of my original formula :rolleyes:

The most important values were armour thickness and the maximum penetration of the main gun. Then points were added or removed based on just about all stats the vehicle has...now this was only for tanks, there are other methods for determining point values for other unit types.

Voriax

johansson · Post by **johansson** » Tue May 29, 2001 11:32 pm

Hi IMHO the cost of the units should (as they are) be calculated after how good the unit is not how large number any country had of them. Would it be a fun game if you could outnumber every German panzer 10-1 whit T34’s for the same prize? The points have one purpose and that is to make even battles how are fun to play!

achappelle · Post by **achappelle** » Wed May 30, 2001 2:19 am

Good point J, though, I wouldn't mind seeing instead of 50 T34s in my backfield, 300-400, doom on you my German friends!!

achappelle · Post by **achappelle** » Wed May 30, 2001 2:20 am

Tanks seem to fire APCR-like ammo based on the type of target.

Paul Goodman · Post by **Paul Goodman** » Wed May 30, 2001 3:53 pm

J, don't you really mean "fun to play from the German side?" While assigning purchase value based on the quality of a tank may have certain merits, did any one include suitability for mass production in that evaluation? I think not. However, as the Red Army so well demonstrated, this is a significant factor.

Furthermore, while all this was going on (the rating of AFV's by quality), the SU had a inherit purchasing point advantage. This has been eliminated in 5.0/5.1. The result has been to unbalance the game in favor of the German side.

Does anyone know what the correct availability of the T-34M42 is?

Paul

Lars Remmen · Post by **Lars Remmen** » Wed May 30, 2001 4:29 pm

Originally posted by Paul Goodman:
J, don't you really mean "fun to play from the German side?" While assigning purchase value based on the quality of a tank may have certain merits, did any one include suitability for mass production in that evaluation? I think not. However, as the Red Army so well demonstrated, this is a significant factor.

Furthermore, while all this was going on (the rating of AFV's by quality), the SU had a inherit purchasing point advantage. This has been eliminated in 5.0/5.1. The result has been to unbalance the game in favor of the German side.

Does anyone know what the correct availability of the T-34M42 is?

Paul

Hello,

The points can be adjusted in the prefrences. You can choose to play a 1000 vs. 10000 point battle. That'll give the Soviets an advantage. If it unbalances PBEM play then the players should agree on how many points the different sides have.

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Wed May 30, 2001 11:32 pm

if a German player had Tigers for 1000 points and the Russian player had T-34-m43 for the same amount. I wonder ho? would win the game of year 1942!
Tiger costs 169 points, for 1014 points he would get 6 pcs tigers (88mm).
Russian player would get 8 pcs T-34-m43 (76mm), for a amount of 1048 points.

Originally posted by johansson:
Hi IMHO the cost of the units should (as they are) be calculated after how good the unit is not how large number any country had of them. Would it be a fun game if you could outnumber every German panzer 10-1 whit T34’s for the same prize? The points have one purpose and that is to make even battles how are fun to play!

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Tortfeasor ]

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed May 30, 2001 11:40 pm

Originally posted by Tortfeasor:
if a German player had Tigers for 1000 points and the Russian player had T-34-m43 for the same amount. I wonder ho? would win the game of year 1942!
Tiger costs 169 points for 1014 points he would get 6 pcs tigers and the Russian would get 8 pcs T-34-m43 for a amount of 1048 points

I have a rule of thumb that in a tank v tank battle any tanks that cost more than 30% more than their opponents will win the battle. So 170 pt tanks will normally whip up on 130 pt tanks even if the total points for each side is equal. The side with cheaper tanks will generally lose the first vehicle, and then it is a downhill slide from there.

God help you if you are playing 10k battles. I don't like more than 3k even on a large map. No room for maneuver if there are that many troops. Try playing a 1k battle and you will find that units that move well do just as well as units that fight well.
thanks, John.

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Wed May 30, 2001 11:42 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tortfeasor:
[QB]if a German player had Tigers for 1000 points and the Russian player had T-34-m43 for the same amount.
Tiger costs 169 points, for 1014 points he would get 6 pcs tigers (88mm).
Russian player would get 8 pcs T-34-m43 (76mm), for a amount of 1048 points.
I wonder ho? would win the game of year 1942!

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Wed May 30, 2001 11:54 pm

As I have noted, that in tank battles you need at least 4 to 5 T34-m43 to knok out a Tiger.

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Wed May 30, 2001 11:58 pm

Originally posted by Tortfeasor:
As I have noted, that in tank battles you need at least 4 to 5 T34-m43 to knok out a Tiger and survive to bury your dead.

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Thu May 31, 2001 12:04 am

One thing that is iritaiting is that "Edit/Delete" and "reply With Quot" buttons are to close each other.

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Thu May 31, 2001 2:16 am

Just curious whether country training is involved here as well.. probably is

Soviets are definitely not useless, they are only useless when you don't play them as a mainly infantry based force.. i usually buy a very small number of tanks of the biggest sort possible, and the rest infantry and arty.

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Thu May 31, 2001 7:57 am

Originally posted by Fredde:
i usually buy a very small number of tanks of the biggest sort possible, and the rest infantry and arty.

Then you are useing the game system against it self.
That`s not historic battles settings.
I think that the moust engaging battles is tank battles with some infantry.

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Thu May 31, 2001 8:19 am

(Getting slightly off topic here)

Of course one can argue that Steel Panthers is about armoured fighting only.. but i'm not sure i agree, perhaps as far as the original version went this was true, but the Matrix product is so much more.. and strikes me as far more realistic.

The one who wins the infantry battle wins the game since armour and artillery alone can't hold terrain.. on the other hand infantry without armour and arty will be an easy target.. combined arms in a true sense leaving no branch any good without the others.

I do believe that the very most battles were infantry battles supported by armour and not the other way around. Then again.. of course, those tanks were far from often of the best type.

Look at the number of men and number of tanks involved here.. very interesting I think.. these examples are from Soviet offensives in 1945.. which should mean comparatively plenty of armour. Of course, this is just an example, and not all of this was deployed in the first line.. but still.. ratios between battalions/arty/armour is something to look at.. ranges between 2-6 tanks/inf guns per battalion.

Numbers are given per front kilometer (from final offensive against Berlin and another operation at the same time):

89 inf (kår = couple of divisions, dunno the english word):
Battalions: 6
Arty and mortars: 148
Tanks and assault guns: 13

29th guards:
Battalions 5.1
Arty and mortars: 951
Tanks and assault guns: 23

4th guards:
Battalions 7.2
Arty and mortars: 251
Tanks and assault guns 44

Source of ths info is a book called "The tactics development in the Soviet army during the great patriotic war 1941-1945", written by general Kolganov of the Frunze academy together with several others.

[ May 31, 2001: Message edited by: Fredde ]

Tortfeasor · Post by **Tortfeasor** » Thu May 31, 2001 12:23 pm

Fredde witch nation is your favorit army.
Mine is the Russian side but i don`t use them, becourse then i must buy for all my points infantry and artillery to survive.

murx · Post by **murx** » Thu May 31, 2001 12:56 pm

to Fredde
kår = couple of divisions, dunno the english word

This means probably Corps (Korps in German).
A Corps is made up of several Divisions.
Maybe 'kår' is pronounced the same way the English 'Corps' ?

murx