Bazooka Accuracy

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by rbrunsman
AmmoSgt: I like playing the Germans because of the variety of equipment offered. However, if I really want to win a game, I'll take the US. I don't see why you are so adamant that the US OOBs should be modified to make them even better. They are simply the best country in SPWAW, IMHO. Why make them more powerful just to be more accurate? It's a game (as I've said before). Do you want any newbie playing the US to be able to walk over an experienced player?

Newbie walk over Experienced player?? You don't mean like the 10th Mountain In Italy or the 101 and 82nd at Normandy .. Or the Marines at Guadacanal ? Newbies like that walkin over Experienced Players like that ?? Is that what you mean? Totally Green Units going up against experienced battle harden Vets under real lousy conditions of supply and a shortage of the traditional US Heavy Arty Support and all that ? Naw we wouldn't want Stuff like the 442nd and the Rangers just coming into the Game green and kicking butt ,or maybe the 34th Big "T" for Texas just off the boat...
To be Historical actually firepower should be high enough for the US Units , even Green units to do well as the traditionally did against Battle Hardened Axis Units .. Elete US Units , well Green Elete ( if that ain't an oxymoron I don't know what is ) Units should at least kick some serious butt .
Seriously though a "newbie" usually has some experience against the AI , and a serious Newbie into actualy tactical proficency probably should be able to kick some serious booty if the game accurately reflected historical capabilities .. The Germans to win should have to be played with incredible skill .. Thats sorta what is missing here , a simple realization that despite the myths and a few heavy tanks the Germans won by Great Tactical Skill when the won .. their Armor was actually pretty much worse than their opponents . both in quality and quanity when they were winning ( and they were somewhat green themselves in the early days of WW2 ) High Morale from some bloodless anexations and a few key units gaining some experience early on in Poland and to some degree Spain . In France they were Mostly Green , armor was weaker and outnumbered , and even going into Russia over Half the German Army had never seen a shot fired in anger , and they had nothing to compare to T-34's and KV-1's . That is why I am so against this "if I got a Tiger I should win TigerKiddey Mentality" with high pointforces on small maps and using tactics better suited for "Quake". If I am Losing it must be the fault of the US euipment being rated to high so we muct whine and get it dumbed down.. arty spoils the game .. The Germans that created the Myth , didn't create the myth with superior equipment they did it with tactical profeciency , and when the politics and Morale loss took it toll on their Real Combat Comanders and they started beinng exicuted by Hitler and demoted and removed from command .. Not even King Tigers could make up the difference.
But it is a Fun Game , not to be taken seriously , Tiger tanks mean you win...and you just don't know how much you are missing .. this game could be so rich .. if it wasn't just a fun game .

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by Sonni
I can also volunteer to play the poor underrated US... in the newbie category.

good Idea Frank W.

hopefully AmmoSgt agrees to participate in this one.

This is 7.1 right?

Guys I am still a couple of months away from the free time it would take to get back into PBEM , This Fall is looking less busy and complicated , and I am looking forward to getting back into PBEM .. And while I appreciate Leo's invite to play H2H , I think I am going to stick to SPWAW , hopefully 8.0 if they ever release it ( I am sure they will , but I think the wait is going to set a record)
If you guys do start playing in a serious effort to see if any of the stuff I am raising cain about has any merit .. seriously .. give the 100x200 map and 5000 points no restrictions ( except maybe the standard mine preplacement restrictions ) a chance and you might want to concider uping the number of game turns so you have time to actually use tactics and so Foot Infantry actually has some time to march and fight it's way to objectives , and work the problem the other guys tactics presents . As soon as I can make time , and I do mean make time , not find time , I will join the fight, may only be a couple of games at a time , and I do have some guys on the waiting list already , but hopefully by October ..

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by Sunray
Yeah, Carlisle's archive is a real goldmine.
About the Panzerschreck : I see in the German Handbook, vol 2, p. VII-12 (from Carlisle too) that "the Germans claim an effective range of 120 meters for this weapon". This is maximum 3 hexes indeed (almost 2 in fact), not 4.

This matches other sources for the R PzB 54 :
- "Anti-Tank Weapons" by P. Chamberlain and T. Gander (MacDonald and Jane's, 1974) : 200m
- "Panzerfaust and other German Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons" by W. Fleischer (Schiffer, 1994) : 150-180m
- "The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II" by I. Hogg (A&AP, 1977) : 150m
- "Highway to the Reich: Operation Market-Garden 17-26 September 1944" by P. Kosnett (in Strategy & Tactics No. 61, 1977) : 400m. No other source is so generous as to give Panzerschreck a range above 200m.

Some time ago I got a large text file quoting hundreds of "penetration performance details of WW2 anti-tank weapons" from the defunct link http://www.britishwargames.force9.co.uk/js_index.htm
I could send you a copy if you want.

Cheers

Sunray , Please send me a copy, I keep meaning to log on to my email computer and email you , but I am not getting there for a couple of days .. I just wanted to thank you and take you up on your kind offer .. Brit War was a great website.

[Belisarius]

Uhm, I'm winging it now, but the argument that Germany won battles because of greater tactics and not necessarily better equipment is correct. However, those tactics are very difficult to model in SP:WAW as the very principle of GE tactics is to ALWAYS have numerical superiority in the point of attack (which they also made great efforts to ensure in each case). IMO, the SP:WAW battlefield is way too small to accurately reflect that and then I don't mind the GE tanks being beefed up a bit.

This ofcourse goes back to your older argument, Ammo, that we play with too many units on too small a map. It seems I come back to that notion every time too. The other workaround is to reduce costs for GE units but I don't think anyone wants to see that.

And..uh.. not to belittle the efforts and sacrifice by the allied forces, but the resistance offered on the Normandy beaches were anything but 'elite'. Once the bridgehead was established the enemy units arriving were of a completely different caliber, but by then the Allies weren't steamrolling over the opposition, either.

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by tmac
from someone who's only played the "stock" game and megas so far.

Isn't this whole basic argument a moot point?

Isn't one of the great features of this game that you can modify an OOB to reflect exactly what you want or desire unit characteristics to be, and then play against like minded or adventurous folks with it? I realize the mods can only go so far, but most things seem to be modifiable. Most of the percieved deficiencies could be addressed this way, and then those that want could have the game reflect what they consider a more accurate historical model, and those that like the so called "more balanced" approach of the stock game could enjoy that version too?

It just seems this seems to get close to flaming or more adult versions of the school yard retort 'Oh yeah?, Jo mama!".

Leo sets a fine example with his work, he's made huge changes in stock oob's etc. If you don't like whats supplied free, why not put a little sweat equity in and try to come up with something different. If it's better, then you'll win converts (or even if it's different people will likely try it). It might get farther than complaining endlessly.

Just my $.02

Tim

Tmac yeah folks can modify their OOBs to suit themselves , but when you play PBEM or online against another human , you have to have the exact same OOB's .. I don't think very many folks would agree to play with somebody elses customized OOB .. that is why it is so important for the Offical matrix OOB to changed over and over and over again .. and many key internal mechanisms such as how range effects infantry weapon kills and what exactly an HE kill of 8 means are internal game engine mechanics that get adjusted from time to time by the mech.exe to see if some setting or another gives a more "satisfactory" result.
Actually most of us old timers kinda hope we can complain endlessly and that someday we will be waiting for SPWAW ver 27.0

[Sunray]

Originally posted by AmmoSgt
Sunray , Please send me a copy, I keep meaning to log on to my email computer and email you , but I am not getting there for a couple of days .. I just wanted to thank you and take you up on your kind offer .. Brit War was a great website.

I cannot send you attachments, so I've temporary added the file on my geocities website :
http://www.geocities.com/phsacre/WW2pen.html

I downloaded the file 3 or 4 years ago, but the link is dead now and I dont remember the author's name, unfortunately (could be John Salt though, see begining of the text). Originally it was a rtf file.

Cheers.

[Vathailos]

Let me preface this with the comment that I sincerely appreciate the base of knowledge that Ammo SGT provides. I think it’s discussion like this, however spirited, that makes the best possible product for us gamers in the long run. All well-reasoned opinions are valuable to a degree (regardless of technical accuracy), reason being they cause us to reassess and reevaluate. Now, with that said…

Two things to add from a contemporary (former) AT-gunnin’ infantryman:

Range estimation:

The sight graduation, while helpful, isn’t a panacea. When I tested for my EIB (Expert Infantry Badge) at Stewart, we had a range estimation portion, and it was far from simple. We had a very narrow tolerance, and the ranges were for a variety of targets (troops, vehicles, etc.). The eyes play tricks, even after a good bit of experience. AFVs may look bigger at the same range depending on their profile, color, camouflage, orientation, etc. That wasn’t the most difficult phase, but just to let you know there are a number of variables.

Also, if a sight doesn’t have “lead ticks” on the reticle, then experience is the only way you’ll hit a moving target, and a ton of it. If you’re not stationary for a bit, and your target is moving, IMO it’s darn tough to hit something with an AT-4 (our best man-portable/dumb-fire comparison weapon at the time) if it’s moving at all at ranges of over 200-250m.

Sweet spots:

The penetration factors of these HEAT rounds (IIRC) are based on a flush strike of the round. In other words, If you’re firing at an angle other than 90 degrees (flat and perpendicular to your target), then you can lose effectiveness in penetration. With time and research, engineers (and I don’t mean combat) can determine the most vulnerable areas of enemy AFVs. Charts and GTAs were handed to soldiers to learn where to shoot the BMP based on angle of approach to stand the best chance for a kill. On well-armored AFVs (like MBTs, and if you’re firing at them with an AT weapon, I hope you maxed your insurance ), if you don’t hit this “sweet” spot, you stand very little chance of destroying the vehicle.

And now one question for you Ammo, because I don’t know. Back-blast and signature. What was the signature like when firing these weapons? Bazooka teams firing and staying hidden when there are any enemy infantry about is a questionable act at best.

Your opinion and any other information would be appreciated.

~Vath

[Frank W.]

yep. ammo sgt. seems to have a great knowledge of weapons - shurly quite helpful for many ppl. seeking informations here. and it´s great how you fight for more realism in the game.

but i still like the game as it is....

you can look in the DAR section, ammo where a game without any limitations is going on between vat ( ger ) and me ( US ) taking place in the ardennes offensive.

for shure a difficult battlefield for both sides....

[VikingNo2]

Frank W sign me up, it think tactics can overcome most problems;)

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Sonni
I can also volunteer to play the poor underrated US... in the newbie category.

good Idea Frank W.

hopefully AmmoSgt agrees to participate in this one.

This is 7.1 right?

cool !

i think H2H ?

do you have it ?

viking: you will play the germans in the "vet" category ?

so we have:

sonny: newbie US
frankw: exp. US
viking: vet - GER

pls. POST do get the rest of
the positions !!

[rbrunsman]

I'll fill a slot if no one else does.

[Frank W.]

bob: you are VET US player then !!

thx.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by AmmoSgt
Newbie walk over Experienced player?? You don't mean like the 10th Mountain In Italy or the 101 and 82nd at Normandy .. Or the Marines at Guadacanal ? Newbies like that walkin over Experienced Players like that ?? Is that what you mean? Totally Green Units going up against experienced battle harden Vets under real lousy conditions of supply and a shortage of the traditional US Heavy Arty Support and all that ? Naw we wouldn't want Stuff like the 442nd and the Rangers just coming into the Game green and kicking butt ,or maybe the 34th Big "T" for Texas just off the boat...
To be Historical actually firepower should be high enough for the US Units , even Green units to do well as the traditionally did against Battle Hardened Axis Units .. Elete US Units , well Green Elete ( if that ain't an oxymoron I don't know what is ) Units should at least kick some serious butt .
Seriously though a "newbie" usually has some experience against the AI , and a serious Newbie into actualy tactical proficency probably should be able to kick some serious booty if the game accurately reflected historical capabilities .. The Germans to win should have to be played with incredible skill .. Thats sorta what is missing here , a simple realization that despite the myths and a few heavy tanks the Germans won by Great Tactical Skill when the won .. their Armor was actually pretty much worse than their opponents . both in quality and quanity when they were winning ( and they were somewhat green themselves in the early days of WW2 ) High Morale from some bloodless anexations and a few key units gaining some experience early on in Poland and to some degree Spain . In France they were Mostly Green , armor was weaker and outnumbered , and even going into Russia over Half the German Army had never seen a shot fired in anger , and they had nothing to compare to T-34's and KV-1's . That is why I am so against this "if I got a Tiger I should win TigerKiddey Mentality" with high pointforces on small maps and using tactics better suited for "Quake". If I am Losing it must be the fault of the US euipment being rated to high so we muct whine and get it dumbed down.. arty spoils the game .. The Germans that created the Myth , didn't create the myth with superior equipment they did it with tactical profeciency , and when the politics and Morale loss took it toll on their Real Combat Comanders and they started beinng exicuted by Hitler and demoted and removed from command .. Not even King Tigers could make up the difference.
But it is a Fun Game , not to be taken seriously , Tiger tanks mean you win...and you just don't know how much you are missing .. this game could be so rich .. if it wasn't just a fun game .

AmmoSgt, the problem is that it is the human player in the game that brings the tactics to the match. I fancy myself a pretty good player, so I don't care what country I'm playing. I'll represent whatever country I'm given pretty well. It seems the way you want it, you should have experienced players only playing the Germans and newbies playing the Allies, so that with realistic OOBs, you'll have an accurate representation of actual WWII actions.

I do however, wish more battles would take your suggestion about bigger maps and longer games. 10,000 pts of equipment crammed into a small map has everyone stumbling all over themselves so there is nowhere to exploit tactical/deployment mistakes. That's where the real fun is!

[VikingNo2]

Next Game RB next Game, we will use the largest map possible and 50 turns or more :rolleyes:

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
Next Game RB next Game, we will use the largest map possible and 50 turns or more :rolleyes:

next game will be you ( ger ) vs. rb ( US ) in the "ammo sgt. contest" !

pls. make suggestions on map,points + turn length ( not more then 25 i would say , min. map size large ).

all 3 pairs play under the same conditions, so we need a balanced map !

[chief]

balanced map !

theres that word balanced again:D

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by chief
theres that word balanced again:D

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VikingNo2]

I would sugest a 100x120 6k points

Would rather just play a random map, unless RB wants to set something up.


I think AmmoSgt, should pick the terms

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
I would sugest a 100x120 6k points

Would rather just play a random map, unless RB wants to set something up.


I think AmmoSgt, should pick the terms

5000 points 100 x200 random map no mines in meeting engaements ( except what engineers lay during the game everything at default C&C off Rareity off ... set for maybe 45-55 turns dawn should get you a useable spread of visibility .. anywhere from 5 to 50+

heres my theory ... 5000 on that big of a map you need ground forces to hold and take ground but if you do decide to go arty heavy or air heavy you are going to be hurting BAD watch your flanks folks can use terrian to actually get behind you .. I am assuming a meeting engagement .. youwill need a good ballance of recon to watch a lot of map , moble reserves to fill gaps and something to hold objectives ... oh and do buy all the artillery you want .. mortars will need to have transportation ( costs points ) ammo trucks will have a hard time keeping up .. off borad arty will run out if you do alot of speculative fire in a 50 turn game .. have fun ... you will need the practice I will probably be getting back in about October sometime ..

[Frank W.]

great ammo !

i would say i look for a map and post it here or in a new thread so all ppl. can keep track of it.

ammo: as your are the mentor of it you will keep track of the 3 games - you don´t need much time but you judge the results after the games ended and collect the opinions of players and then we post it for discussion !

i would say H2H because the US here get´s some more arty for the points as it should be. can only be a france or italy battle i would say in july or aug. 44 ?

would that be okay?

but we still need 1 exp. player + 1 newbie player ! how about belisarius, chief. wufir ?
you are experienced ? or already a vet ?