WitE 2

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).

+1

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).

+1

Complete with Colonel Potter to put plugs in the horses for parades.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).

+1

At heart and as a player I agree but I can't see it happening. It would be yet more complexity to add to a game pushing current processing power which needs research, balancing and delivery this decade.

More fidelity and complexity is a double edged sword. How many debates have there been on this forum on balance? Not something you see amongst those who play chess.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

This game needs a horse mechanic like the vehicle mechanic. Lack of draft animals was a real constraint on the mobility of German infantry units and also limited the Red Army's ability to field cavalry (which in the current game play a remarkably important role in the first winter counter-attacks).

+1

At heart and as a player I agree but I can't see it happening. It would be yet more complexity to add to a game pushing current processing power which needs research, balancing and delivery this decade.

More fidelity and complexity is a double edged sword. How many debates have there been on this forum on balance? Not something you see amongst those who play chess.

+1 You can't please everyone all the time.

[Zebtucker12]

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!

[Icier]

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!

I agree

[Colbert]

ORIGINAL: Icier

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

I should stop visiting this thread i get to excited by all the great progress i see.
Keep up the great work!

I agree

+1

[JamesM]

Hopefully this games is released this year.

[Balou]

See Red Lancers post #1593. Sounds more like 2020 to me.

[Zemke]

Question / Thought
As the continued balance question keeps coming up, there should be a "historical" setting, based on testing of the game based on what each side did in the war, particularly the early and late periods. If you played with the game set to "historical", and both players played exactly like each side did, you would see roughly the same results in the same time period. Now if that result is unbalanced because players of either side used a different plan, for example pushed to take Leningrad (and most can currently in WitE1, when historically Hitler only wanted to destroy/starve the City out, so the Germans never really tried to take Leningrad, only besiege...anyway), will there be alter net settings as in WitE now to give a +/- to different areas of the game to achieve that balanced game?

Also, just one comment about WitE1 currently, the beauty of the current system is it allows anyone who has ever played a hex based operational war game,to pretty much jump right in and play. You do not need to know how all the "systems" work, you just have to make common sense decisions, and if you follow history, you won't go too wrong. Now compare that with War in the Pacific: AE, where if you are playing Japan and you do NOT understand the production system, it will hurt you badly. Simple with depth is great, just don't let the depth become "Chrome" that most of the time becomes a way to manipulate the game systems (as everyone will if given a chance) to gain an edge. Keep it historical, keep it simple, and make it force you to make the decisions real Commanders had to make when faced with a situation. I know many players want to be able to change industry and build what they want, and I have no problem with that, but it should be an optional setting, because it deviates from the historical.

[OberGeneral]

[>:][>:]

[OberGeneral]

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]

We are making progress. The Air War is staying the same with Air Directives but we are adding new functionality to group Air Units together in Air Op Groups to allow easier management.

[OberGeneral]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Is no news, good news?
I would very much like to play WitE 2.

I purchased WitW and now have a good grasp of the Air War concept.
Hope it doesn't change too much in WitE 2.[:D]

We are making progress. The Air War is staying the same with Air Directives but we are adding new functionality to group Air Units together in Air Op Groups to allow easier management.

Thank you for the update.[:)]

[TunganNinja]

doublepost

[TunganNinja]

To Red Lancer:


You mentioned that there will be a theater box for the Arctic region. I'm wondering if you can expand on that point a little with concern to the Finnish front. I have two questions specifically in mind.

It is heavily speculated by many in the alternate history community that in the event of a winter '41-'42 surrender of Leningrad, greater German support would be able to reach the Lappland theater. This would allow for a possible Winter/Spring '42 offensive to cut off Murmansk railway (short term positioning), and possibly afterwards the capture of Murmansk itself (long term positioning). The Fins attempted to do such historically (with limited German support), but ground out with poor logistics. Given that Murmansk was an important Lend Lease supply link (along with Archengelsk), up until Persian chained LL increased in '43, does WitE 2 account for the possibility of reduced LL in the early war, due to these hypothetical offensives?

Also, the Finnish army mobilized a substantial portion of it's population into it's OoB (500k out of 3.5m total pops if I recall), but was historically unable to contribute to offensive operations after it's initial campaign. In fact, their OoB decreased from '43 on because of lack of supply on their homefront. My second question is then, can WitE 2 account for the significant lifting of Finnish supply issues by way of Germany through Leningrad to Finland? Ofcourse, Germany was having it's own supply issues, but no other minor Axis power suffered from supply issues quite like Finland, due to their logistical isolation, that required them to demobilize.

I'm afraid the answer to these questions is no, which would be disappointing. Lend Lease had a huge impact on the general war, and long term, full Finnish participation without demobilization would change the Northern Front during the late war period. Sure, they're not getting shiny new equipment, but at least they're being fed.


Cheers,
Tungan

[TunganNinja]

I also have two questions about railroads in WitE 2.

During the war, numerous new railroads were constructed by the USSR in support of their war effort. The most famous example is the railroad from Astrakhan to Baku, which was built during the Winter of '42 in response to Axis control of the Western Caucauses, temporarily cutting off rail-based oil supply. In WitE 1, this railroad is anachronistically present from the start of the game. Does WitE 2 have a dynamic system for building railroads, a static system as it was in WitE 1, or something in between, as in a segment appears at a certain date?

Also a related question, it's no surprise to anyone that a chief motivator of Case-Blau was cutting off the USSR's supply of oil. The likelihood of that plan paying off can be debated (I debate it), but if successful what would it look like? An aspect of Caucasus oil production is that it was principally transported by boats up the Volga. By having Germany secure the Volga's western shores, they effectively cut off a major avenue of supply of oil. This would lead to inefficiencies in transport but would be partially averted by transporting it to a different Caspian Sea port and building a railway, but would take the Soviets time to build up the accompanying infrastructure. So, how does WitE 2 account for shipping of the Caucasus' oil to long-term USSR supply depots in the Urals? This would have debatable effects but could be potentially crippling on Soviet offensive ability in a year or two's time assuming that the blockade held.

[TunganNinja]

Last question, and I think the most important one. A significant reason for attritional losses in warfare is lack of nutrition. This can be as much a supply issue as a production issue. In sieges like Leningrad and Stalingrad, it was a supply issue. For the Germans, in the late war they had significant production issues that could be felt across the whole warfront. IIRC, the Ukraine and Caucusus comprised approximately 75 to 80% of USSR's agricultural production. As Germany learned firsthand, it took a very long time to bring these fields back into producing significant yields.

Almost universally in wargames, the productional aspect of agriculture is ignored, but it's effects are very present to a commander 1 or 2 years after shortage in the form of easily fatigued and demoralized men. Soldiers feel the effects significantly less than civilians, but if severe enough it can lead to the collapse of a wareffort entirely.

Therefore, my question concerns Soviet war rations and ability to maintain a homefront. By late '42 the Soviet Union began to feel the painful loss of their agricultural fields in their stomachs. Lend Lease was not capable of mitigating demand for grain and like as population was massive. In our time line, the Soviets simply drew from their granaries, as they planned to do with their oil reserves if oil was temporarily cut off. If the Soviets were denied their agricultural areas for a longer expanse of time, rationing would have an even stronger effect on Soviet morale and a small chance to cause a destabilization of their homefront. On the other hand, by early '43 Germany was just beginning to bring production of agriculture and minerals back online in their conquered territories, and promptly lost it before making use of it. This would alleviate Germany of many production issues (primarily agricultural) that they experienced late war and consequently raise their morale.

Does WitE 2 have any features which simulate the production of agriculture, and the effects of malnutrition on local/national morale levels?

Thank you for reading attentively, I hope they in some small way can shape WitE 2 into a more accurate simulator of the Eastern Front.

Cheers,

Tungan

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: TunganNinja

I also have two questions about railroads in WitE 2.

During the war, numerous new railroads were constructed by the USSR in support of their war effort. The most famous example is the railroad from Astrakhan to Baku, which was built during the Winter of '42 in response to Axis control of the Western Caucauses, temporarily cutting off rail-based oil supply. In WitE 1, this railroad is anachronistically present from the start of the game. Does WitE 2 have a dynamic system for building railroads, a static system as it was in WitE 1, or something in between, as in a segment appears at a certain date?

Also a related question, it's no surprise to anyone that a chief motivator of Case-Blau was cutting off the USSR's supply of oil. The likelihood of that plan paying off can be debated (I debate it), but if successful what would it look like? An aspect of Caucasus oil production is that it was principally transported by boats up the Volga. By having Germany secure the Volga's western shores, they effectively cut off a major avenue of supply of oil. This would lead to inefficiencies in transport but would be partially averted by transporting it to a different Caspian Sea port and building a railway, but would take the Soviets time to build up the accompanying infrastructure. So, how does WitE 2 account for shipping of the Caucasus' oil to long-term USSR supply depots in the Urals? This would have debatable effects but could be potentially crippling on Soviet offensive ability in a year or two's time assuming that the blockade held.

This is a very important inquiry. That was indeed Hitler's intention behind Case Blau, and it probably was a better plan than the General's Staff's Barbarossa plan.

[RedLancer]

Tungan

Thanks for taking the time to clearly articulate your questions. Let me try and answer. I’ve been busy with real life and WitE2 graphics recently so don’t be surprised if Joel chips in and corrects me. The usual caveats of we are still in alpha and our focus is getting the main areas of historic combat correct apply.

Treatment of Finland
As you’ll have picked up from the thread the relative importance of the Arctic Theatre, its size and AI challenges has led us to abstract it for the Campaign games. What happens in the Theatre Box (TB) is governed by Events and CV. There is currently no event that triggers an increase in supply in the TB when Leningrad is captured but it could be added. In a similar way if the Soviet player fails to commit sufficient troops to the TB then LL ought to take a hit.

Rail Construction
Rails are not dynamic. As we have created the map we have carefully chosen the best compromise based on time and geography.

Moving Resources
I’m not 100% sure how the logistics system works with resource movement as it is largely hidden. I do know that the game now allows port depots to be switched between send and receive to allow freight to be better channelled by sea as required. Shipping values are set separately for the Baltic, Black, Azov and Caspian Seas. We could also add an event that triggers on cutting the supply from Baku, by say, capturing Astrakhan, Lagan or Makhachkala.

Agriculture
Your argument is well made. This level of nuance is applied through broad modifiers on supply as at the basic level we don’t separate agriculture from other resources – only oil is treated separately.