The Shattered Sword: John 3rd vs. Anachro--BTS

[John 3rd]

OK. Headed to work but I'll do a quick memory check here:

Original Six heavies except no Kaga. Amagi replaces her as intended in 1921
Junyo and Hiyo complete.
Original CVLs plus Nisshin comes in as a CVL and then the additional CVL allowed under London Naval Treaty.
New Kaimon (Shokaku Kai) that replaced Taiho in builds.

Total
7 Heavy CVs
2 Medium (Junyo-Hiyo)
6 CVL

Compared to RL, Japan has 1 extra Heavy and 3 CVLs at this point.


At a MINIMUM: The Allies have gained Wasp as a Yorktown and CV Ranger. He should be converting all four CAV/CLV plus some escort CVEs if he has pulled that trigger. If he is not converting the CAVs/CLVs then they equal four CVEs in rough aircraft capacity with cruiser speed speed and armor.

[Canoerebel]

In reading a few posts, there seemed to be so many unfamiliar names among CV, CVL, BB, BC that it seemed like heavies might be everywhere doing terrible things to the good guys.

What's your impression of the mod, so far. Has it given you a touch more freedom to do things or do you find yourself a tad more limited? Are you satisfied with everything? And I know the answer to this question: Are you having fun? [:)]

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In reading a few posts, there seemed to be so many unfamiliar names among CV, CVL, BB, BC that it seemed like heavies might be everywhere doing terrible things to the good guys.

What's your impression of the mod, so far. Has it given you a touch more freedom to do things or do you find yourself a tad more limited? Are you satisfied with everything? And I know the answer to this question: Are you having fun? [:)]

Always having fun! BANZAI!


The Mod seems to be OK. Each side has a good amount of toys to play with and I wish I could speak with him some. Have no idea what he is doing or trying to do. The strength of the Mod really depends on the Allied Player.

All the changes within the Treaty ALWAYS benefit the Allied player on the 5:5:3.5 basis so that gives proportionally more for them to play with. EX: The Japanese get the Amagi-Class BC Ishitaka but the American gain Lexington-Class BC's Constitution and Constellation (with one old BB (Mississippi I think) scrapped to balance out the numbers).

Beyond the Treaties, the Allied player has lots of very early choices to convert some AOs or AS into CVEs. Those are pretty decent deals to augment things in late-32 or -43. The two ANZAC CAVs (Melbourne and Wellington) and two American CLV's can convert into proto-Princeton-Class CVLs and they are pretty nice.

Add to those possibilities above, the increased strength of the French, Australian, and New Zealand Navies and there are lots of things to use.

Lastly---due to what happened in our match--the off-map aircraft purchase system for the Allies and I think it makes for a massive boost in Allied power IF USED WELL.

Would just love to talk to Sean about that...

Does that help? Does it create more questions?

I know there is always LOTS of Allied player crying, whining, and lack of understanding regarding the Mods and that they favor the Japanese too much. There may be some kernels of truth there. Don't know until we're farther into the Mod. I'd love to hear from that crowd. Some of the BS that I read over in your thread (when our match ended) indicated a ton of ignorance. Whether that is intentional, lazy, or accidental I do not know. Would love to constructively talk about it and try to rectify any misunderstandings.

[Bearcat2]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In reading a few posts, there seemed to be so many unfamiliar names among CV, CVL, BB, BC that it seemed like heavies might be everywhere doing terrible things to the good guys.

What's your impression of the mod, so far. Has it given you a touch more freedom to do things or do you find yourself a tad more limited? Are you satisfied with everything? And I know the answer to this question: Are you having fun? [:)]

Always having fun! BANZAI!


The Mod seems to be OK. Each side has a good amount of toys to play with and I wish I could speak with him some. Have no idea what he is doing or trying to do. The strength of the Mod really depends on the Allied Player.

All the changes within the Treaty ALWAYS benefit the Allied player on the 5:5:3 basis so that gives proportionally more for them to play with. EX: The Japanese get the Amagi-Class BC Ishitaka but the American gain Lexington-Class BC's Constitution and Constellation (with one old BB (Mississippi I think) scrapped to balance out the numbers).

Beyond the Treaties, the Allied player has lots of very early choices to convert some AOs or AS into CVEs. Those are pretty decent deals to augment things in late-32 or -43. The two ANZAC CAVs (Melbourne and Wellington) and two American CLV's can convert into proto-Princeton-Class CVLs and they are pretty nice.

Add to those possibilities above, the increased strength of the French, Australian, and New Zealand Navies and there are lots of things to use.

Lastly---due to what happened in our match--the off-map aircraft purchase system for the Allies and I think it makes for a massive boost in Allied power IF USED WELL.

Would just love to talk to Sean about that...

Does that help? Does it create more questions?

I know there is always LOTS of Allied player crying, whining, and lack of understanding regarding the Mods and that they favor the Japanese too much. There may be some kernels of truth there. Don't know until we're farther into the Mod. I'd love to hear from that crowd. Some of the BS that I read over in your thread (when our match ended) indicated a ton of ignorance. Whether that is intentional, lazy, or accidental I do not know. Would love to constructively talk about it and try to rectify any misunderstandings.

The treaty limits were by tonnage, not number of ships. In this scenario, Japanese cruisers have more tonnage than the US even when including the ships not in the Pacific. I could be wrong but I think you forgot to include your 2 CV conversions in your earlier comparison.

At start, the Japanese have 6 CV's, 7 CVLS, 3 CVE as compared to stock 6CV, 2 CVL, and 2 CVE's. The Japanese requirements for Chinese garrisons, appear to be less, ex: in stock Shanghai 720, Canton 360.
I think this scenario is interesting, there are allied limitations regarding the British CV's, they should be able to get more Strinbeans; the Br CV fighters are more than enough. their attack squadrons are a 1 shot wonder, replacements are a problem.

[John 3rd]

I can quote the Treaties to you. In places they were BOTH tonnage and number. Look to Washington where TWO BC were allowed to be converted by the Big Three Powers. They were allowed to be up to 33,000T but two were how many could be converted. Allowances were made even after that for the conversions. ONE experimental Carrier (think Langley and Hosho) was allowed per navy (this is raised to two in the Washington Treaty). Using this precedence I allowed the CAV/CLV designs to be allowed for in the London Treaty where the US, GB, and Japan build two of the hybrid designs of the time.

Which conversions do you speak of?

Correct. I did my early numbers based off my memory. Japan begins the war with:
CVs: Akagi, Amagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, and Zuikaku
CVLs: Zuiho, Shoho, Ryujo and the two Proto-CVLs Ryukaku and Karasu
CVEs: Hosho, Ibuki (Hosho-Class), and Taiyo
CAVs: Tokachi and Kushiro as the experimental G.6 Hybrid Design

The Ryukaku and Karasu are one deck versions of the failed Ryujo and are allowed under the 5:5:3.5.

American CV OOB:
CVs: Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet and Wasp (as Yorktown)
CVEs: Ely and Langley

CLV: Jacksonville and Charlotte

Additional 2 CAs, 2 CLs, and 8 DDs.

Ability to convert a full class of AOs to CVEs as well as a class of AVs and the KVs.

Americans gain the Ranger, a stronger Wasp, two CVEs, and the pair of CLVs.

British OOB:
Same as Historical

Australia
CAV Melbourne, DDs and SSs

New Zealand
CAV Wellington and DDs

French
Cruisers, DDs, SSs, and support ships.

We have added planes to the Allied pools. The ANZACs now have Carrier Aircraft. Several squadrons were added to the Allied OOB. The off-map aircraft purchase system allows for the purchase of just about anything in exchange for Political Points.

Your comments regarding Garrison Requirements must be addressed to my fellow designer Michael. He felt my garrison requirements were much too high for India and China. He lowered them from where I had moved them. How this relates to the 'normal' requirements I am not sure.

Most of the non-naval Allied changes have been done by Michael since he is an AFB and well schooled in his experience playing as an Allied Player.

[John 3rd]

Michael: Can you address the comments on Garrisons?

[ny59giants]

Yes Admiral!

The garrisons were lowered to reflect more towards bases that have economic assets. John had raised them too high in many places. While japan may have lower garrison requirements, the Chinese have better supply generation AND from 50 to 100% increase in non-infantry device production.

This will all end when I eventually get around to changing China to Big B's version of China. Hopefully this theater will end being more a stalemate than a place for Japan to roll over like it is now.

I recently completed a book of the wars in China from 1911 to 1949. I now see the reason behind Brian's (Big B) mod here.


I have played both sides to very late '43. First as Japan and now as Allies that should go the distance. The Allies do have enough to hurt Japan early in '42 if they are not careful. Two of the hybids convert quickly (90 days - can start in Feb '42) while the two American CLVs take until late '42 (180 days - May to Nov).
The Allies have dedicated training air groups which helps a lot. The Americans get more in July '43.

I think the mod is relatively balanced after all the tweaks to get it back from being too Japanese friendly in the game John had vs Canoerebel.

[John 3rd]

I forgot about the Allies getting their training squadrons. We added a bunch of units so the Allies have the ability to emulate what Japan can do. Good catch Michael!

Am truly looking forward to the next iteration of the Mods with what Michael plans to do with China. It should be a STALEMATE! Period. End of discussion.

Adding the device improvements as well as supply generation should truly help in several different areas.



Forgot to add the Royal Navy changes of the additional BC, several additional Cruisers, more Dds as well as several more SS.

More comments?

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Yes Admiral!

The garrisons were lowered to reflect more towards bases that have economic assets. John had raised them too high in many places. While japan may have lower garrison requirements, the Chinese have better supply generation AND from 50 to 100% increase in non-infantry device production.

This will all end when I eventually get around to changing China to Big B's version of China. Hopefully this theater will end being more a stalemate than a place for Japan to roll over like it is now.

I recently completed a book of the wars in China from 1911 to 1949. I now see the reason behind Brian's (Big B) mod here.


I have played both sides to very late '43. First as Japan and now as Allies that should go the distance. The Allies do have enough to hurt Japan early in '42 if they are not careful. Two of the hybids convert quickly (90 days - can start in Feb '42) while the two American CLVs take until late '42 (180 days - May to Nov).
The Allies have dedicated training air groups which helps a lot. The Americans get more in July '43.

I think the mod is relatively balanced after all the tweaks to get it back from being too Japanese friendly in the game John had vs Canoerebel.

Michael: what book please?


Also: have you checked the Chinese OOB made by Sid (El Sid) in RHS mod?
Have you talked with him? about China and every issue you raised or pointed at here?
He'll be very happy to answer and enter in correspondence with you;

Also I'm sure you're aware of the interesting solutions on the logistic aspects applied by LST in China (and Burma area too) in "Bottlenecks" mod;


Adm. Cochrane: one issue of "balance" and realism has been raised regarding the armor deck of the Japanese CAVs; you and Michael answered but probably is worth of further analysis and consideration;


P.S.: some discussion was raised also within respect of Japanese 4 Eng bombers hen you recentlu used them for some limited strat bomb campaign; cheap claims of unrealism has been rejected, but someone also uploaded the specs for the Rita (GM8?) from mod's editor, and at least one specification called for surprise and that is the Armor level of 2 (???!)

[ny59giants]

The most recent book is:
The Wars for Asia 1911-1940 by S.C.M.Payne

Another book by the same author is:
The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895

A third book that covers what is going on in China from 1949 to present is:
The Hundred-Year Marathon by Michael Pillsbury


I played as Japan against Brian (Gen Patton/btd64) using RHS.
El Cid's economy changes were too much for me.
John and I are changing to Big B's China as John has been talking with this Brian for some time.

[Bearcat2]

My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I know there is always LOTS of Allied player crying, whining, and lack of understanding regarding the Mods and that they favor the Japanese too much.

I am NOT whining!!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Yes Admiral!

The garrisons were lowered to reflect more towards bases that have economic assets. John had raised them too high in many places. While japan may have lower garrison requirements, the Chinese have better supply generation AND from 50 to 100% increase in non-infantry device production.

This will all end when I eventually get around to changing China to Big B's version of China. Hopefully this theater will end being more a stalemate than a place for Japan to roll over like it is now.

I recently completed a book of the wars in China from 1911 to 1949. I now see the reason behind Brian's (Big B) mod here.


I have played both sides to very late '43. First as Japan and now as Allies that should go the distance. The Allies do have enough to hurt Japan early in '42 if they are not careful. Two of the hybids convert quickly (90 days - can start in Feb '42) while the two American CLVs take until late '42 (180 days - May to Nov).
The Allies have dedicated training air groups which helps a lot. The Americans get more in July '43.

I think the mod is relatively balanced after all the tweaks to get it back from being too Japanese friendly in the game John had vs Canoerebel.

Michael: what book please?


Also: have you checked the Chinese OOB made by Sid (El Sid) in RHS mod?
Have you talked with him? about China and every issue you raised or pointed at here?
He'll be very happy to answer and enter in correspondence with you;

Also I'm sure you're aware of the interesting solutions on the logistic aspects applied by LST in China (and Burma area too) in "Bottlenecks" mod;


Adm. Cochrane: one issue of "balance" and realism has been raised regarding the armor deck of the Japanese CAVs; you and Michael answered but probably is worth of further analysis and consideration;


P.S.: some discussion was raised also within respect of Japanese 4 Eng bombers hen you recentlu used them for some limited strat bomb campaign; cheap claims of unrealism has been rejected, but someone also uploaded the specs for the Rita (GM8?) from mod's editor, and at least one specification called for surprise and that is the Armor level of 2 (???!)

Hey Adar.

Queries have been made on the CAVs. Suckers are big at over 16,000+ T. I pulled my armor numbers straight from the book. Can anyone correlate or collaborate on them? If there is an error, I can easily rectify but as far as I understand it, the Deck is 60 which can defeat a 1,000 HE bomb but not an SAP bomb. Correct?

Here is what I have in the design:

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO

I always use Rene Francillon's work for aircraft stats.The Liz and Rita info came from Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. None of this stuff is made up when it comes to historical aircraft and ships. Simply use the stats that I have been given.

The 4EB program is a pure and simple fantasy. Have no issue admitting that whatsoever. Building and using them is fun, however, they are very expensive with number of engines and all that.

The armor number of 2 for Rita came from another Mod used in AE. I THINK (could be wrong) it comes from the Ironman or one of the other late-war Mods.

[John 3rd]

In the Mod, LIZ is available starting Dec 7th and begins with a very low production rate. This is a purposeful decision. The Japanese Player may CHOOSE to produce the plane. I have the number set at 28/Month. Cost is steep economically speaking. The start of the war sees 1 Daitai in Cadre status in Kyushu with then 3 more Daitai coming in as reinforcements during the war. I just got my 3rd Daitai a few days ago in Aug 1943.

Here are the stats:

[John 3rd]

We tried to reflect service issues with the bomber by placing their SR at 4.

This is RITA starting production in April 1945:

[John 3rd]

As with anything Michael and I do, it is about balance and accuracy. We're always open for change. This is how we added the off-map aircraft purchase system. It was due to the issues that came up in my campaign with Dan. We dialed things back starting a couple of years ago due to experience playing an early RA variant through to mid-45.

The 4EB discussion seems to focus on accuracy. Are Francillon's numbers that far off? Need serious educated input here...

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

My comments were directed more to the changes made, compared to stock.
I like the mod; there are only 2 things that I think are fantasy, one; the 2 Hybrids converting to full carriers with Soryu plane stats, you addressed that in an earlier post. The other is the G5N's where you gave them design specifications, the G5N was a failed design, the engines didn't work and when they switched engines in 43'; 4 were relegated to transports and the other 2 were never used as bombers. It would be better to use the stats for the Mavis/Emily which would be closer to the actual plane or just use those planes for the same purpose IMHO

The G5M was underpoered, because the intended engines were unreliable, thus replaced with less powerful;

I think "underpowered" machine oerformances should be reflected in : sensibly lower practical ceiling, poor to very poor climb rate (not that important in game for a bomber ), of course poor manouverability, reduced practical payload espacially for longer range, possibly higher service manteinance rate;

The G5M (version 2!) of the mod shows a ceiling of 24 k feet altitude, not that high; should it be reduced? maybe...; a payload reduced from 12x250 kg to 4x 250 kg; SR 4; max speed isn't that high either, 261 mph= 430 Kmh; it coulb be reduced a bit more too; manuverability, 4...;

finally, we have a non impressive LR bomber, at the edges of obsolescence, not very well armed for self defence, should the Japan player be deprived of the option if he wishes to and willing to invest the high resources for it?
sincerely I don't think so;

eventually it could be taken in consideration an evolved version with the more powerful engines intended from the beginning when they become available (they are the same engines of the ki 84?) ; if the superior G8M has not finished its development in the while;


much could be said about japanese bomber designs that did not see mass production mainly for industrial reasons

[John 3rd]

Good comments Adar. Don't disagree with anything said. We could dial back the LIZ more for the at war plane. I did exactly what you described by putting an upgrade into production starting in June 43. Let me pull up that Model.

[John 3rd]

Here it is. SR is still 4: