Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

OK, first some general comments and then I'll get into specifics.

That chart FWIW is a recipe for disaster. By that set up there will be exactly no aircraft strikes launched. All CV based bomber air units are set to search and that is all they will do. Their proper mission is Naval Attack. Once that's set a list of 'sub missions' will appear below the list of mission types. Here you may put a percentage of that units' aircraft on a 'different mission'. Such as 10% search, or 20% ASW. That being said I never put aircraft from the same group on both search and ASW. Why? Because the optimum altitude settings are different for the different mission types. Search 6k, ASW 2k.

Now my 'rule of thumb' is to set some of my DB's to search, say 10-20%, depending on the situation. No torp bombers are set to anything other than 'Naval Attack' (torpedoes). Again why? Well my DB's early on are Val's, and their ordnance is a 250kg bomb. Not bad, but not optimal. So I'll expend some of their effort on finding my targets. OTOH my TB's put holes in hulls and this lets the sea in and will ultimately sink my opponents' ships.[:D] The only way I'll change this is when I'm out of or low on torp sorties. BTW if you've run outta torps, you are either very wrong or you have decimated your opponent. Head 'home' to resup. At any rate if I get stuck in that situation, then I 'reverse' the roles of my bombers. Search with TB's and let all my DB's have an attack role. Again, again why?[:D] DB's are more accurate than level bombers, which is what TB's become with a load of bombs. Oh, and one more thing.
Altitude is set for all aircraft at 10,000 so assume that is a 'standard' dive bomber height?
10k-18k IIRC.

That's wrong. DB's will only dive from altitudes between 10-15k. Below or above that range they will level bomb. Anything about 'glide bombing' is also wrong as at some point in development it has been removed.

Now torpedo bombers' altitude doesn't matter (for the most part), because they will drop down to 200' for the torpedo run. What does make a difference is that each attack is fired on by AAA prior to the attack and then at the 'instance of attack'. All 'heavy' AAA guns in the TF will fire in the initial attack. In the second only the guns on the attacked vessel will fire. As you can see if your initial altitude is higher you will probably have less losses from the first attack.
Why no search arcs for the DB's?

Many players don't use search arcs. I know of no one who uses them for a TF at sea. I never set search arcs for TF's at sea. I do use them for LBA, unless the unit just has too few A/C to make a real difference. IOW units with 6 or fewer A/C.
Pearl Harbour as a target - but presumably these aircraft won't be flying to Pearl given their assignment?

Again I rarely assign CV fighter groups to a specific target. You can't 'target' a TF and after PH I rarely attack land targets with my CV air units. Their pilots are too valuable to lose over land targets. Now again that's just a 'rule of thumb'. When an opportunity exists where the loss level is insignificant I will take the chance.
Unlike the TBs the DBs have different ranges (4-7).


This is again the wrong thing to do. I set all units to the same range as I want as much as possible on target at the same time. The goal is to overwhelm his defense and blow through to strike his ships. The more the merrier in these instances.
There is a range of altitudes set. What is the thinking here e.g. suppose there were only two carriers?

Over time the CAP process was evaluated and like all tactics during the war it evolved. CAP became layered, especially in the USN. High CAP, Low CAP, and Med CAP became SOP. So a 'range' of altitudes. I set them as best I can when there're few CV's in the TF or group of TF's.
Why would there be a range of altitudes for the TB's?

No real need, unless you're trying to possibly slip some by his CAP. IOW you are hoping his CAP will miss some of the strikes. Hence layered CAP.[;)]
Does this apply only to fighters on Escort? Two of the air units are still on Sweep.

No, it applies to all mission types. Including bombers. Hence 'Naval Attack', with a percentage assigned to another mission type. E.g., search, ASW, etc.

Well 'newbie', I hope some of this helps.[:D]

rustyi is right. About you being a noob. He didn't add in 'spambot', which I will take this opportunity to do now. [:'(]

I agree with his comments regarding your carrier aircraft settings. "Nav Attack" with the fractional 'submenus' should be your way to go. To maximize probable coordination for large strikes, keep all like with like (except for the odd ASW-only Val unit).

So, settings would be something like:

Vals: Naval Attack. Range 6. Altitude 10,000. Select 10-20% to Naval Search in submenu. Maybe have 1 unit of Vals on ASW at 2,000 ft.

Kates: Naval Attack. Range 7. Torpedoes. Altitude 10,000. No submenu selections. Why range 7 instead of 6? On the off chance that you can get a naval air engagement at arm's length, you should take it.

If carrier torpedoes are running low, then seek to replenish as soon as practical, as these are a major part of your strength. Your Kate pilots are skilled in NavT preferentially, less so NavB, the use of bombs.

Zeroes: Escort. Range 7. Altitude 10,000. Submenu settings: 50% CAP. This ratio can be argued (do you want more or less planes flying cap relative to escorting planes to target?).

An advantage of keeping aircraft in the same general range, altitude and mission bands is that they are more likely to coordinate strikes effectively and not get the dreaded 'separated and unable to find target' OPS message during critical strikes.


As you will be-at least for now-relying on your 'organic' Naval float reconnaissance planes to spot enemy naval TFs, you should review your CVTF float plane settings. Early on, your CS planes are extremely useful for this. What are their settings now, particularly in your longer-range float planes? Don't forget to check your BBs and CAs for their naval float planes too-every little bit helps.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Thank-you - that is very helpful.

One follow-up question:
So my understanding from the manual that there is no CAP mission as such but any mission set is effectively overridden if CAP is ordered. Kull has the fighters for Hiryu and Soryu with Pearl Harbour as a target - but presumably these aircraft won't be flying to Pearl given their assignment?
witpqs response:With Escort mission, any planes left over after the percentage assigned to the specific categories will be available for actual escort duty.

Does this apply only to fighters on Escort? Two of the air units are still on Sweep.

And to be clear. If I have a small number of bombers on naval search (as currently) - and they find a target - do the game mechanics then vector in other aircraft - even though I have no bombers on anything other than naval search missions? I hope that question makes sense?

Why Newbie? I don't think playing Coral Sea about 4 times against the AI (and getting creamed) about 10 years ago really qualifies me as anything else!

My answer to your question on witpqs post:

So if you have "Escort" setting for your fighters and "60% CAP" only a maximum of 40% of the fighters will fly Escort in this example. Fighters assigned to sweep will attempt to sweep their targets and will not engage in default CAP or escort duties. Strongly encourage you to NOT so divide your fighter effort, except on rare occasion.

Bombers on naval search will often attempt to attack the target when found. This resolution comes up during the naval search phase OPS report as singletons or small numbers attempt a desultory attack. It is unrelated to naval strikes which follow spotted enemy forces and should not be confused with a naval strike. Enemy surface forces discovered by naval search profiles may be the subject of follow on attacks, but appropriate forces must be set to 'naval strike', NOT naval search.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by rustysi »

Bombers on naval search will often attempt to attack the target when found.

would like to add here that they do so with an extended range loadout. So if your Vals are searching and they attack, they will do so with 60kg bombs.
So if you have "Escort" setting for your fighters and "60% CAP" only a maximum of 40% of the fighters will fly Escort in this example.

This one always gives me fits as I'm not exactly sure how it works.

I will however add what I'm sure of... When you set a CAP percentage it means that that percentage is 'reserved' for CAP. From that CAP you will have 1/3rd 'in the air', 1/3rd 'at the ready', and 1/3rd 'ready in a bit' so to speak. Now that being said your boys on the CV (or base) will be getting any and all fighters ready to launch for the CAP mission. IOW when you're attacked everything available on is CAP. Now that doesn't mean all aircraft will engage, they will just attempt to get launched and into the fight. Don't ask for specifics as its all done 'under the hood'.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by rustysi »

Vals: Naval Attack. Range 6. Altitude 10,000. Select 10-20% to Naval Search in submenu. Maybe have 1 unit of Vals on ASW at 2,000 ft.

Kates: Naval Attack. Range 7. Torpedoes. Altitude 10,000. No submenu selections. Why range 7 instead of 6? On the off chance that you can get a naval air engagement at arm's length, you should take it.

This is a matter of gaming style. I like the 'schwerpunkt', but the other method has its merits too. TBH I could see both uses depending on the tactical situation.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Bif1961 »

Some put extra fighters on their carriers and if they suspect a pending carrier engagement, will set their CAP at 100% and not launch strike aircraft, figuring they will shred the incoming attack with 200-300 fighters against 50-60 escorts and then be free to attack the next turn against a decimated enemy air groups. This could work earlier in the war as fighter squadrons are smaller and skill levels for Americans lower and it could be used against either side as well. WITPAE version of rope-a-dope.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by rustysi »

Some put extra fighters on their carriers and if they suspect a pending carrier engagement,

I highly recommend this for Japan before the July refits. Her CV fighter groups tend to be small at start.
and not launch strike aircraft, figuring they will shred the incoming attack with 200-300 fighters against 50-60 escorts and then be free to attack the next turn

This may backfire. I don't like to be 'defensive' when mucking about with my CV TF's. I'd rather be the one doing the strike.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by RangerJoe »

If I were Japan, I would strike first as their damage control is not the best. But load your carriers with extra fighters. If the extra fighter units are not on "escort" the extra fighters will launch for CAP if needed. So if they were set to a range of zero, they would not join in an attack unless they were in the same hex. If they had a slightly higher altitude, they should get a bounce on any escorting fighters.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by tarkalak »

When you set CAP with range different than 0, the fighters will try to cover the whole area. Also known as "leaky CAP". This increase fatigue for the pilots and wear and tear for the planes. The bigger the range the worst the fatigue will be.

So if you set your Zeroes to 50% CAP and Range 7, half the group will fly CAP (1/3rd in the air, 1/3rd warmed up, 1/3 less ready) for every hex in a 7 radius circle around your base (carrier). This CAP will be increasingly ineffective the farther they have to go from their base.

You could instead set up half of your plane groups to 100% CAP at range 0 (they will cover only the hex you are in) and the other half to 100% escort at range 6 (they will not fly CAP, but will wait for any bombing missions and fly escort for them)). The groups that fly CAP will get fatagued, so you might switch the two groups at some point or assign the 10% - 20% Rest.

As a side note: If you set up LR CAP (long range CAP), your planes will CAP the target hex and a (range) radius around it.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: tarkalak

When you set CAP with range different than 0, the fighters will try to cover the whole area. Also known as "leaky CAP". This increase fatigue for the pilots and wear and tear for the planes. The bigger the range the worst the fatigue will be.

So if you set your Zeroes to 50% CAP and Range 7, half the group will fly CAP (1/3rd in the air, 1/3rd warmed up, 1/3 less ready) for every hex in a 7 radius circle around your base (carrier). This CAP will be increasingly ineffective the farther they have to go from their base.

You could instead set up half of your plane groups to 100% CAP at range 0 (they will cover only the hex you are in) and the other half to 100% escort at range 6 (they will not fly CAP, but will wait for any bombing missions and fly escort for them)). The groups that fly CAP will get fatagued, so you might switch the two groups at some point or assign the 10% - 20% Rest.

As a side note: If you set up LR CAP (long range CAP), your planes will CAP the target hex and a (range) radius around it.

While this is true (setting different airgroups with different CAP ranges), I believe that it also complicates the algorithm for strike coordination. IMO, I believe that the bombers that would ordinarily be escorted by their carrier's fighters, may balk-or be fragmented-when attacking defended airspace.

There's also the danger that those ships providing local CAP may be damaged or otherwise affected by the vagaries of combat (e.g., overloaded by receiving other ships' damaged airframes / fragmented groups) and not provide ANY local CAP. This "all or nothing" approach would be an unintended consequence of such a reaction.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Thank-you - that is very helpful.

One follow-up question:
So my understanding from the manual that there is no CAP mission as such but any mission set is effectively overridden if CAP is ordered. Kull has the fighters for Hiryu and Soryu with Pearl Harbour as a target - but presumably these aircraft won't be flying to Pearl given their assignment?
witpqs response:With Escort mission, any planes left over after the percentage assigned to the specific categories will be available for actual escort duty.

Does this apply only to fighters on Escort? Two of the air units are still on Sweep.
Yes, pretty sure it only applies to the Escort mission.

When you set a fighter mission to "Sweep", the area below that allows you to set a percentage to "CAP". I have used "Sweep/CAP" and it works.
"Sweep" was probably intended for sending most of the unit to clear the air over a designated target, but it does not have to be used that way.
If you set the unit range to 0 or 1, with the Sweep mission and 50% CAP, the chances that the leader will undertake a "Commander's Discretion" sweep mission are very low if you are more than one hex from any target that can be swept.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by warspite1 »

Guys thanks for all the input. Two final questions on this subject which again I can't see an answer to in the manual; I have a VAL unit on Naval Attack / Rest / and with an ASW patrol level of 20%.

The Manual States:

Air units that have Naval Attack set as the Primary Mission may select a Secondary Mission in
case there are no TFs to attack as follows:

» Airfield Attack (which happens to be our example’s selection)
» Port Attack
» Recon
» Rest – If no Naval Attack is conducted, the unit will do nothing.


Does the sentence underlined take precedence over my inserting a patrol level (i.e. there are no patrols), or does it mean that those on Rest will be the units that would otherwise take part in a Naval Attack and the units ordered on patrol still undertake those patrols?

Finally, in this example I have these aircraft on ASW and so want a low altitude. But does this then mean that if any aircraft from this unit flies a Naval Attack mission, they will fly at 2,000? i.e. can I not set an altitude for ASW and another for Naval Attack?

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Anachro »

The patrol level missions happen regardless of anything else. Your current settings mean 20% of your planes will be dedicated to ASW missions. The "secondary" mission you currently have selected is "rest" but you can also set this to recon, ground attack, port attack, or airfield attack. This means if there is nothing to attack at sea, your planes will conduct this other mission. However, no matter what 20% will do ASW.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Anachro »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Finally, in this example I have these aircraft on ASW and so want a low altitude. But does this then mean that if any aircraft from this unit flies a Naval Attack mission, they will fly at 2,000? i.e. can I not set an altitude for ASW and another for Naval Attack?

You cannot set an altitude for both, so your best option is to keep the planes at w/e altitude you use for your strike package to preserve coordination. Your planes will still do a decent job spotting enemy subs and sometimes hitting them.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by warspite1 »

Thank-you Anachro. So for better of worse my final air orders for the KB are:

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Kates: Naval Attack. Range 7. Torpedoes. Altitude 10,000. No submenu selections. Why range 7 instead of 6? On the off chance that you can get a naval air engagement at arm's length, you should take it.

If carrier torpedoes are running low, then seek to replenish as soon as practical, as these are a major part of your strength. Your Kate pilots are skilled in NavT preferentially, less so NavB, the use of bombs.
And worse, hitting with bombs at 8000 - 10000 ft is lousy odds irrespective of skill. And then compounding this, 250kg bombs won't do all that much if they hit anyway.
So, yeah, keep your torps full …
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Does the sentence underlined take precedence over my inserting a patrol level (i.e. there are no patrols), or does it mean that those on Rest will be the units that would otherwise take part in a Naval Attack and the units ordered on patrol still undertake those patrols?
It's like all the other secondary missions. These 'secondary missions' will be performed regardless of the naval attack primary. So if you have 50% rest and 50% naval attack, 50% of the group will 'rest' and perform those calculations of true rest (rather than non-strike inertia), while the other 50% are ready for a naval attack. No enemy TF found? Then that 50% naval attack doesn't happen either and the unit will do nothing. No naval attack, no airfield attack, no port attack and no recon. Not an electronic sausage.
Finally, in this example I have these aircraft on ASW and so want a low altitude. But does this then mean that if any aircraft from this unit flies a Naval Attack mission, they will fly at 2,000? i.e. can I not set an altitude for ASW and another for Naval Attack?
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Aye. In your example you will attempt ASW with 20% of the planes from the group at 10,000 feet. You may or may not get a naval attack, depending on the presence or absence of the enemy, blah blah blah. Want ASW at 2,000 feet? This may be where you designate one unit of Val or Kate to have that as their sole responsibility and forego naval attack optionality.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Thank-you Anachro. So for better of worse my final air orders for the KB are:


One of the advantages that the Japanese CV air have in the early war is the pathetic qualities of the American TBDs. Max range of 4 (with torpedoes), slow, bulky, poor manueverability, etc. Early war Allied AAA is no great shakes either. IIRC the Wildcat (F4F) has a 'normal' range of only 5, extended range of 7.

So you would much prefer to be 6-7 hexes out from your opponent in the air war at this time. A 7 hex strike is the shiznit.

Don't give up that advantage by defaulting to a lesser range. You're built for fighting at arm's length at this point.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Thank-you Anachro. So for better of worse my final air orders for the KB are:

And regarding my previous questions about your cruiser, battleship and CS float plane settings? Not to be overlooked.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by mind_messing »

I'm a bit late to the CV planning party, but don't hold that against me.

I see the value in having all squadrons contribute equally to CAP and escort, but I think there's more value in keeping dedicated squadrons for escort and dedicated CAP squadrons.

In the event of a offensive strike getting mauled, the dedicated escort squadrons take the morale hit resulting from heavy losses, while the CAP squadrons remain effective.

Might be something worth thinking about.

I'd also play about with the altitude settings. From my experience, CV strikes tend to be very well co-ordinated (amongst the best and most consistent in the game) regardless of altitude settings. I'd keep the Vals at 10k as per Chickenboy, but drop the Kates down to 8k. This puts them above the light Allied AA for most of 1942 (but that changes when the Bofors starts to appear en-masse) but will give a nice boost to accuracy if they end up using bombs instead of torpedoes.

EDIT: Just checked, 6000ft is the max altitude for the 40mm Bofors, so 7k altitude should be fine for your Kates.
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'm a bit late to the CV planning party, but don't hold that against me.

I see the value in having all squadrons contribute equally to CAP and escort, but I think there's more value in keeping dedicated squadrons for escort and dedicated CAP squadrons.

In the event of a offensive strike getting mauled, the dedicated escort squadrons take the morale hit resulting from heavy losses, while the CAP squadrons remain effective.

Might be something worth thinking about.

I'd also play about with the altitude settings. From my experience, CV strikes tend to be very well co-ordinated (amongst the best and most consistent in the game) regardless of altitude settings. I'd keep the Vals at 10k as per Chickenboy, but drop the Kates down to 8k. This puts them above the light Allied AA for most of 1942 (but that changes when the Bofors starts to appear en-masse) but will give a nice boost to accuracy if they end up using bombs instead of torpedoes.

EDIT: Just checked, 6000ft is the max altitude for the 40mm Bofors, so 7k altitude should be fine for your Kates.
That's their mission altitude. Keep in mind when planes attack with torpedoes they are modeled as dropping down much, much, lower during the attack run and drop. Likewise when a plane dive bombs it is modeled to drop very low during the bombing dive.
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