Gibraltar is not closed ?

[boudi]

Look at the CA "Prinz Eugen" and a DD from the Kriegsmarine in the Mediterranean sea... [:D]

How they by-passed Gib ??? [X(]

[boudi]

I saw the loops. i don't understand why they exist. They did'nt exist in the previous versions (like Global Glory) , or i make a mistake ?

Gibraltar, it's this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfc_FgIpyLw

Is there, during the WWII, a single german heavy cruiser who had by-passed Gibraltar, or also a light vessel like a destroyer ? I'm not sure... [&:]

[ncc1701e]

Did the bad weather help you? [:D]

[Sugar]

Is there, during the WWII, a single german heavy cruiser who had by-passed Gibraltar, or also a light vessel like a destroyer ?

No, but if the Royal Navy finds it unworthy to place some ships to prevent a breakthrough... It's not that hard, as may notice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash

Several dozen subs made the breakthrough despite the RN and RAF, and I guess the game doesn't differentiate between subs and other vessels.

[boudi]

Hi Sugar,

Thank you for your interest.

I think that Unternehmen Zerberus does'nt prove anything. The channel is a lot different than Gibraltar. 34km for the Channel, 14km for the strait. Moreother there was a german air cover on the channel, more than 400 aircrafts, this is impossible at Gibraltar.

I admit that some axis submarines should pass the Strait of Gibraltar, someone with damage. Admit that some of them (most of them ?) gone under the sea, mostly after the ASDIC progress. But for a non submarine vessel its look like absolutely impossible.

I think that these loops are a very bad idea. Gibraltar is no longer a lock. if they have to reman in place The game must differentiate submarines and surface vessels. Moreother after the level 2 in antisubmarine warfare discovered by UK no submarine should pass the strait. And before with random dammages, between 0 to 10.

[Sugar]

It's the same lock as it was historically, but if you unhistorically remove all ships to protect the lock, it's not your opponents failure. There are just 2 hexes you can use as Axis, and you can't know what's expecting you after leaving the loop, giving the Allied player a great advantage.

[BillRunacre]

In World at War, any Axis unit using the loop has a chance of ending up adjacent to Gibraltar, which may not be a good move.

I don't think I've yet implemented that risk factor into War in Europe, but it will be coming if it isn't already there.

[Sugar]

In this game, any Axis unit using the loop has a chance to begin their turn adjacent to Gibraltar, providing a prepared attack bonus on attacks on Allied ships parking in port, and escape, prefarable through the loop, therefore being unattackable during Allies turn. Allthough I don't think Gibraltar without occupating ships would be able to prevent any attempt of a breakthrough by surface ships, this is indeed a little unfortunate.

[boudi]

Ok, works as designed. From now i will be vigilant and will fix some vessels at Gib.

Thank you very much.

[dhucul2011]

Bill, just a thought on Gibralter as per what I have changed in my own MOD:

I believe that a large portion of the docks in Gibralter are actually on the Atlantic side. Move the one port from 137,113 (change that back to Spain) to 135,114.

Move the Med loop start hexes to 138,114 and 138,115.

I then added a strength script to hit Axis ships parked on the loop start hexes and called it the "Guns of Gibralter Hit Axis Ships".

This will make it dangerous for the Axis to park their ships on those loop positions in addition to possibly being next to Allied ships in port.

[Sugar]

Hard to hit a diving sub by arty.

[dhucul2011]

Unfortunately there is no way to differentiate between the types of units the Axis are trying to pass through.

You can call it artillery, mine fields, shore launched torpedoes...whatever.

It just doesn't feel right allowing battleships to run the strait without any peril.

[boudi]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

It's the same lock as it was historically, but if you unhistorically remove all ships to protect the lock, it's not your opponents failure.

I hope that Allies vessels can use these loops if Gibraltar falls to Axis forces, because if not all these arguments go under the sea... [:D]

[Sugar]

It's the same for the Axis in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Without the Gibraltar loops Axis` fleets would be locked in the Med forever, even after conquering the Suez Canal, while Allied fleets are still able to use their loops.

The only thing you'll have to do is to place some ships at Gibraltar. I guess leaving Gibraltar unprotected is more unrealistic than surface vessels passing an only by coastal arty protected strait, but it`s up to the player to make this decision.