Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

15. Set training for both Hosho units (now aboard Zuiho): Claude = Train: 100-Escort, Alt: 10K, Range: 0, Jean = Train: 100-Naval Attack, Alt: 8K, Range: 0

Also, on this selection, you need to decide what you want to train these Jeans for. NavT or NavB? You differentiate between the two training modalities by toggling the 'use torpedoes' text on the Jean home page. You don't need to be in range of an Air HQ with torps to train the Jeans, just if you want to use really-o truly-o exploding torpedoes. Moderate altitude settings don't matter (2,000-10,000 ft.) for the training, but don't go 1,000 ft. or below, lest you be training up LowNav instead of conventional attack profiles.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.

Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category. [;)]

We all know happens to armies that promote based on seniority, not ability. [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.

Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category. [;)]

We all know happens to armies that promote based on seniority, not ability. [:D]

True dat. Of course, we all know what happens with armies that listen to the pedantic psychobabble of unwashed heathen noobs too. [:'(]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Kate pilots that will also be expected to be proficient at NavSearch, ASW, NavB and NavT will take the longest of the bunch.

And then there's the issue of taking those carefully trained Kate pilots and sticking them in a Nell or Betty and watching their experience drop. [8|] Then for fun, put that same pilot back in a Kate and watch his experience drop again!

[warspite1]

I've gone back to the manual and played around with some of the pilot screens to try and understand how they all inter-connect - but it’s all a bit frustrating. There is plenty of reference to TRACOM in the forums - but not one reference (based on a word search) to this in the manual. There is reference to pilot reserve and 'groups' - sometimes capitalised terms and sometimes not. There are Air Groups, Airgroups and air groups. The manual mentions the Pilot Replacement Screen that pilots in the last month of the training cycle (12 months) become fully trained and added to the pilot pool (uncapitalised term). The next sentence then mentions a Pilot Reserve. The Pilot Reserve Screen shows a list of named pilots who are assigned to groups (but not yet arrived) assigned to a general pilot pool or assigned as training instructors. When I search pilot pool there is reference to a Reserve Pilot pool. There is reference to there being 3 pilot pools.

So using the manual and the in-game screens let’s see if I can make any sense of all this. To try and aid my understanding I will start with a re-cap of what I think I’ve done using Kull’s instructions for his Resize Plan as there are still pilots that need to be found from somewhere.

Zuiho. Started the turn with two air groups (?):


From the manual I see that the (no.) is the Maximum Ready Aircraft at any one time. So in the case of each Hikotai I originally had pilots to match airframes. * Irritatingly I can’t remember what I clicked on to increase the pilots to 16 – I don’t think it was automatic. The instructions were to add 18 veteran pilots but there was only one veteran in the ‘pool’.

** The instruction is to increase the pilots to match the air frames by adding veterans. However because there is only one veteran in the ‘pool’ that has not proved possible. I’ve added this pilot to Zuiho 1A but will take a while to get there.

*** I’ve added 5 pilots to Zuiho 1B.

Kull’s instructions states “The "B" Unit is not a training unit” but also goes on to say “In the meantime, add 5 pilots [to B] with low "50" level skills and train them up”.

So I still have questions about ‘Zuiho’s original aircraft’ but let’s see if I can make sense of the various pools as that may help. But that will have to wait until the morning…..

[Chickenboy]

The reserve pool is the pool of pilots that are 'dumped' from the training squadrons when they are trained up or otherwise dumped into the reserve pool from defunct, withdrawn or removed groups.

There are three subsets of reserve pilots to which you refer. TRACOM, group reserve and general reserve. For now, forget about group reserve. General reserve is the 'reserve pool' to which I refer above and is the location I draw from for my trained pilot replacements.

TRACOM is another bird entirely. Elite pilots (greater than 80 EXP) from your top groups will be identified as being TRACOM eligible by their color. The text of their names is in yellow. You can select these pilots to be trainers of trainers. The functional value of these pilots is in dispute in the game. What they do is 'pull through' and accelerate untrained pilots in your training pools.

Incoming training pilots start out at a miserable experience level. They exit month 12 at the base experience level set in the game-that's in the manual. For example, USMC pilots may (I'm making this up) exit the 12 month training cycle at experience level of 55 in 1942. This level (for the Allied pilots) generally increases as the war goes on. The Japanese default is for their 12 month grads to decrease over time. An IJAAF 1945 pilot has a poorer experience level than a 1942 one.

So TRACOM pulls / accelerates cadres of pilots along through training school and moves them through the ranks to the default maximum 12 month training value faster. Do you get 'better pilots' with it? No. You get more of them trained to the max rookie deployable value though.

If you are cannibalizing your 12 month grads and have to go back into your 9-12 month classes to scavenge for pilots to fill your front line units, your experience levels suffer. For both sides, there are plenty of pilots coming through early war, unless there's extreme attrition early. However, in the mid-late war, the air war heats up and numbers of even marginally trained pilots may become more an issue.

How many TRACOM leaders in TRACOM do the trick? No one really knows. The 'under the hood' formula has not been shared. Generally speaking, the consensus is that more trainers allocated to TRACOM will tend to pull forward 'more' pilots through the training program once monthly. But it's not forumulaic and it's not set in stone.

I tend to use TRACOM to hedge my bets. I get more pilots through, but I also set aside my best pilots there until they can be put to use in generation III or IV planes rather than get butchered early in the war. As a bonus, I get more pilots pulled through the system. Many players don't use TRACOM at all and swear by it.

Subject change: General Reserve. General reserve is where you put your pilots that you want to use at another time in a frontline unit.

[rustysi]

TBH, this whole thing has me baffled. I've never read Kull's proposals, so I've no idea of his thought process or motivation.

For me I'd just like to state how I set my CV's up in the early game.

Firstly I'd like to say all IJN flattops are of value and need to be in some kind of action for the entirety of the expansion of the empire. I even go as far as to use some of my AV's as ersatz CV's. Any and all expansion of IJN air groups should be limited to their LBA units. The exception being to 'fill' out space on CV's, where permitted. Now, most Japanese CV's won't allow changes to their group composition until their first upgrade, which IIRC is in July '42. That being said she has unused space on her flattops. I fill them out with LBA ftrs.

So I set my CVL's to 21/9, ftrs/TB's, and I fill out their pilot numbers from pilots I pull from the IJN LBA units if I've none in the reserve pools. As for their A/C I'll even 'steal' these from LBA units. No flattop should be operating Claude's, Jean's, or Mabel's in combat, beyond the first few days of the war.

Rule one when it comes to flattops, no rookie pilots in any of their groups. This is the Varsity, not trainers. All training for IJN pilots to be done by LBA, and what LBA is not needed as trainers is at the front improving their skills for the 'Varsity'. From there they go to the reserve or directly to the CV's. To go directly to CV's is where you'll pull from the group reserve after you've put those LBA pilots into it.

You'll often 'hear' it said here that its along game. Not for Japan it isn't, her game lasts about 6-8 months. After that she's on the defensive, like it or not. She has no time at the start to go mucking about with training for CV groups.

Anyway it can all get a bit much for those who've not gotten too deeply into the game.

If nothing else just keep rule one in mind.

BTW, I know you've a lot on your plate here, but have you checked out the first few pages of Mike Solli's AAR. Its on-going and can be found on page one of the AAR's. It goes into great detail on executing Japan's set-up. I found it to be an extremely helpful and practical study guide when I started.

[rustysi]

And then there's the issue of taking those carefully trained Kate pilots and sticking them in a Nell or Betty and watching their experience drop.

[:D]

I've learned to avoid this by training these units somewhat differently.

[RangerJoe]

I read somewhere that the magic number of trainers in TRACOM is 10. That is, that is when an effect is noticed. For Japan, I believe that it is important to get the pilots out of training faster since each trainee pilot uses Heavy Industry (HI) which I believe is 5 per month. This probably reflects all of the damaged and crashed aircraft plus the support needed. Not really having played Japan, I have not experienced this. You can ask an expert JFB fanboy if this information is true.

You can also train fighter pilots and bomber pilots in ground bombing by bombing Chinese units away from any possible Allied fighter coverage. Those pilots will also gain in experience as well as the specific skill. A good use for Chinese units that you have trapped in the open where you have closed off all hexsides so they can't leave while leaving enough units there to keep them from winning a ground battle so they can leave. Also, bomb cut off Chinese units (Zombies aka walking dead) so they are even easier to kill on the ground so they won't cut your supply lines. Every attack, even bombing without AAA firing, raises their supply consumption by 10% which if they are cut off or even just under supplied, just making them easier to destroy.

From a NOOB

Joe

[rustysi]

I read somewhere that the magic number of trainers in TRACOM is 10. That is, that is when an effect is noticed. For Japan, I believe that it is important to get the pilots out of training faster since each trainee pilot uses Heavy Industry (HI) which I believe is 5 per month. This probably reflects all of the damaged and crashed aircraft plus the support needed. Not really having played Japan, I have not experienced this. You can ask an expert JFB fanboy if this information is true.

Not exactly an 'expert', but have some knowledge.

Yes, 10 is the number, or better said groups of 10. So each 'nationality' (IJA, IJN for Japan) needs at least 10 to get the benefit. More are better, but TBH intended or not the result seems to be much curtailed from the original version. Its still a useful place to keep some better pilots for the better later model planes.

That being said there may even be a problem with the practice. It seems some here have reported massive increases in the quality of pilot experience in the training pools with large numbers of pilots in the TRACOM pool. AFAIK this is not WAD. I personally have yet to determine if this is so, and am partly continuing my current AI game to try and do at least a limited test.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
More are better, but TBH intended or not the result seems to be much curtailed from the original version.

Right. This is what I meant in my previous post. "Some" work. More is better. Maybe. But it's not what it once was. At least that's the way it 'feels'. Hardly much to hang one's hat on.

[Orm]

Has the Japanese fleet hit a reef or something? Or will the action continue sometimes soon? The world eagerly awaits.

[Zorch]

A sudden attack of interruptus realitus.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Has the Japanese fleet hit a reef or something? Or will the action continue sometimes soon? The world eagerly awaits.

Me thinks warspite1 is getting the meaning of 'learning cliff'.[:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Orm

Has the Japanese fleet hit a reef or something? Or will the action continue sometimes soon? The world eagerly awaits.

Me thinks warspite1 is getting the meaning of 'learning cliff'.[:D]

warspite1

Indeed. I have informed AllenK (my patient and gracious opponent) that I am throwing in the towel on this one. I have tried over the last few weeks to get to grips with the game but have failed.

I would like to say a huge and sincere thank-you to all those who contributed comments, encouragement, help and advice. My failure is despite your help, not because of it (except of course in the case of Chickenboy - but I ignored his drivel any way).

As the naval war in WWII is my main interest, in the military history sphere, I would have loved to have been able to get into this game - but I finally realise it's just not for me.

Thanks once again.

[sPzAbt. 502]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We'll agree to differ on this one Chickenboy, but failing to use tracker is putting yourself at a serious disadvantage.

A) Found on other screens
B) Summarized / extrapolated / surmised sufficiently elsewhere. Say you want to know how much supply there is on Honshu-in a general way. Is there a single base that serves as an 'acid test' to underscore production / supply shortfalls? [spoiler alert: There is]
C) Replicated manually or dispensed with altogether

A - Tracker lets you navigate extremely easily between widely different topics without much clicking. Say you get a new radar set. Tracker concentrates all the information on the build rate, availability dates and the specific stats for that radar. All that information in-game is separate.
B - Yeah, the key there is "general way". Tracker gives you the exact number, broken down by base, without excessive manual addition.
C - Sure, you can do the sums yourself, or you can let Tracker do it and save the time for plotting the turn. Tracker also won't make mistakes, as humans are prone to do when adding airframe production before their morning coffee.

A) Notoriously user unfriendly to get started. Not for technophobes that don't enjoy fiddling with programs ad nauseum that make their life "easier".
B) Increased potential for 'paralysis by analysis'-may vary user by user. More detailed information about minutiae may not be meaningful for the big strategic picture.

A - We're agreed here. I've had some trouble with Tracker in the past, but nothing that wasn't solved with a search on the forum.
B - Ah, but Tracker even gives you the option to filter by the important stuff. That Port Arthur is out of resources is critical information, that the umpteenth regiment arrived at some hex is not.

Probably unhelpful (my opinion) for a first time PBEM player playing Japanese for the first time trying to grapple with 'big picture' items instead of minutiae.

I disagree completely. Tracker is very helpful for playing Japan, point blank, irrespective of skill level.

The screenshot posted by Zorch is the best example for the present case - a general overview of IJ industry. Here we can see that green info = good, and red info = bad, as well as daily production and global totals. Gathering that info from the game alone is an exceptionally tedious process.

I have never got it to run as intended or understood how to use it if I did, together causing me to feel too stupid to play the game.

[RangerJoe]

Try the Allied side, it is much easier. Even if you lose all of your aircraft carriers in 1942, you will still be able to defeat the Japanese. But try some scenarios first to get the hang of the combat operations without the economy factor.

[sPzAbt. 502]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Try the Allied side, it is much easier. Even if you lose all of your aircraft carriers in 1942, you will still be able to defeat the Japanese. But try some scenarios first to get the hang of the combat operations without the economy factor.

I have managed the economy with the game interface pretty well, being conservative and careful.

[Bif1961]

Playing the Japanese especially in the Grand Campaign right of the box is like drinking from a fire hose. No need quit entirely, just take it in smaller bites like how ants eat an elephant.

[RangerJoe]

Playing the Japanese especially in the Grand Campaign right of the box is like drinking from a fire hose. No need quit entirely, just take it in smaller bites like how ants eat an elephant.

I could not have said it better myself. [&o] [&o] [&o]