expanded The Next War 1979

[mussey]

Here is a screenshot of the new North Sea. I anticipate NATO Naval movement here to reinforce Norway and a thoroughfare to intercept Soviet forces coming down from the Norwegian Sea.

I'm uncertain how the naval game will play out.
- the Battle of Atlantic events will result in varying degrees of NATO delay, and I need to attach the entrance of naval units and sea reinforcements to the proper #event/game turn.
- The 2nd Fleet is huge. I need to parcel out what realistically would be committed to mapped gameplay keeping in mind that ships have various commitments that will prevent entrance into the game:
1) docked for refit/upkeep/repairs
2) elsewhere in the Atlantic including Mediterranean.
3) fighting the Battle of Atlantic off-map
4) naval losses fighting BoA (not sure how to create an Event to model this?)
- what ever 2nd Flt units emerge from the result of the BoA will greatly determine the future battle on the map here.
- I edited the limited number of vanilla naval slots to modern naval equipment. Some ship classes have ranged surface-to surface missiles (SSM) that have extended ranges (ie Harpoon, Exocet, and Shaddock).

Where I'm at currently, is creating the US 2nd Fleet, then attaching them to the proper #event. I need to adjust machine gun levels for both Forces. Then I can game test....[:'(]

[cathar1244]

As an aside, this is an interesting article on NATO central front issues.

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0006.pdf

A brief discussion of the frontage to be covered by brigades among other items.

Cheers

[mussey]

I am currently editing the UK forces for the 1979 timeframe. Fire and Fury.com [https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwbritish.pdf] is a good jump off point for this:

[rhinobones]

From the graphic in your post, I wish that TOAW could also make the physical size of the unit icon match the unit size. Your graphic shows division icons as larger than brigades, brigade icons larger than . . . wouldn’t it be nice if TOAW could also make unit icon sizes on map proportional to the unit size. Maybe size can be proportional to unit volume/weight as described in the scenario database.

Would like to see a regiment icon smaller than a division icon.

Would like to see a depleted regiment icon smaller than a full regiment.

This would obviously cause problems with the visual presentation in hex stacking, but the smart people coding TOAW should be able to find a way.

Regards, RhinoBones

[boxof9]

Excellent work. Any chance of expanding your map to include Greece and Turkey?

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: boxof9

Excellent work. Any chance of expanding your map to include Greece and Turkey?

After playtesting and release of Expanded 1, I may do another version that includes this area.

[cathar1244]

Blast from the past.

IT IS NOON, MAY 3. WARSAW PACT UNITS HAVE BEEN STREAMING ACROSS THE BORDER FOR THE LAST TWO DAYS. THE NATO COMMANDER HAS THROWN TOGETHER A MIXED FORCE DEFENSIVE FRONT ALONG A RIVER LINE (CENTER SCREEN). MASSED RUSSIAN ARMORED AND MECHANIZED INFANTRY UNITS THROW THEMSELVES AGAINST THE OUTNUMBERED DEFENDERS. IN THE SKIES ABOVE FIGHTERS, BOMBERS AND HELICOPTERS STRUGGLE FOR SUPREMACY. THE NEXT FEW DAYS WILL DECIDE THE FATE OF EUROPE. PREPARE FOR ACTION.

-- from MicroProse's NATO COMMANDER (1983). Played that one back in the day on an Apple IIe.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

Dup

[mussey]

I thought I was mostly finished with the OOB, then realized that the French Army during this time period was reorganized from x5 regular-sized divisions (which was never fully implemented) to x8 armored and x4 infantry/mech smaller divisions. These units are brigade size. Out of all the armies in this scenario, I have a much lower confidence level on my accuracy. Anyone with more info on this is welcome to comment. Check this out:

[larryfulkerson]

Hey you guys: I really appreciate you guys working on this. It sounds like one of the better scenarios so far. I can't wait
to play it.

[cathar1244]

Hi Mussey,

What I am seeing is that the French Army reorg took effect from 1 July 1979. What is start date for your scenario?

Thinking of two options here. One is that the French keep the old org because of the pressure of wartime, or, if you opt for the new structure, their readiness should be very poor because of organizational chaos.

I have a good URL from which to work up an OOB. From there, we'll have to figure out what the divisional subunits had (more or less) -- I thought you might have some issues with the French Army in terms of documentation.

One neat bit the URL brought out is a force called "Zone of Rhine Crossing" (ZFR in French) that is mostly engineer bridging units with territorial foot infantry as a security force.

Cheers

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: mussey

I thought I was mostly finished with the OOB, then realized that the French Army during this time period was reorganized from x5 regular-sized divisions (which was never fully implemented) to x8 armored and x4 infantry/mech smaller divisions. These units are brigade size. Out of all the armies in this scenario, I have a much lower confidence level on my accuracy. Anyone with more info on this is welcome to comment. Check this out:

Here some info

The French had no AMX 13-105 light tanks they had only the AMX 13-90, AMX 13-75 and ome of them equiped with SS!0 or SS11 missles.
The AMX 13-105 was produced for the Dutch Army.
By the reoganization there was no 4th French Armored Div only the 4th French Airmobile of the FAR.

[MikeJ19]

Hi Guys,

I'm really looking forward to trying this one out! Thanks for all the work.

[cathar1244]

Mussey,

I'm working up an OOB first to see what the French had, and where it was, in 1979. Here is the start of it.

French Forces 1979

Berlin

..1 Bn Infantry VAB [46e RI]
..1 Bn Armor AMX-30 [11e RCh]
..1 Co Engineers [110e CG]

I Corps [at Metz]

..1 Bn Pluton Missiles [3e RA at Mailly]
..1 Bn Pluton Missiles [4e RA at Laon-Couvron] [Reserves]
..1 Bn Recon Drones [7e RA at Nevers]
..1 Bn HAWK SAM [402e RAA at Chalons-sur-Marne]
..1 Bn Engineers [34e RG at Epernay]
..1 Bn Helicopters [1er RHC at Phalsbourg] [10 SA341, 18 Alouette III w/SS-11, 10 SA341 w/HOT, 22 SA330 Puma]
..1 Bn Helicopters [3e RHC at Etain-Rouvres] [10 SA341, 10 SA341 w/HOT, 9 Alouette III w/SS-11, 18 SA330 Puma]
..1 Group Helicopters [11e GHL at Essey-les-Nancy] [10 SA341, 10 Alouette II]
..1 Bn Infantry VAB [1er RI at Sarrebourg]
..1 Bn Armd Cav EBR [12e RCh at Sedan]
..1 Bn Armd Cav EBR [4e RH at Besancon]
..1 Bn Armd Cav EBR [8e RH at Altkirch]
..1 Bn Armd Cav EBR [9e RH at Provins]
..1 Armd Div [4e DB at Nancy see notes]
..1 Armd Div [6e DB at Strasbourg see notes]
..1 Armd Div [7e DB at Besancon see notes]
..1 Armd Div [10e DB at Chalons-sur-Marne see notes]

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey you guys: I really appreciate you guys working on this. It sounds like one of the better scenarios so far. I can't wait
to play it.

Thanks Larry, MikeJ19, Box of 9, Cathar, and all others for your encouragement.

When I started this project, my goal was to simply use the existing order of battle and to add a few others, and then to start playing. At this point, I've spent more time creating than actually playing. Certainly a labor of love.

[mussey]

Here some info

The French had no AMX 13-105 light tanks they had only the AMX 13-90, AMX 13-75 and ome of them equiped with SS!0 or SS11 missles.
The AMX 13-105 was produced for the Dutch Army.
By the reoganization there was no 4th French Armored Div only the 4th French Airmobile of the FAR.

_____________________________

Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch



Thanks for the tip. I'm not even certain if these vehicles belong in the 1979's armored brigades...

[mussey]

Cathar, we may be looking at parts of the same source. Here are a few that got me to this point. This is from Fire and Fury website:

[mussey]

This source suggests the Orbat at 1977. With this organization the Corps are closer to resembling traditional Divisions with x1 to 4 Brigade-size armored units, and x4 Infantry/mech units unattached mainly located in western and southern France.

[cathar1244]

Hi Mussey,

You are correct about 1977. The reorganization (or part of it) was known as "Division Type 1977", so yes, at this point, the "new structure" is what should be shown in your scenario.

I have finished the OOB for the French Army of 1979 (a great French URL has helped a lot) and am working out a suggested TOAW equipment list for each type of unit. When I'm done, in a day or so, you can compare to what you've unearthed.

One thing that jumped out equipment-wise, is that the French Army was in the middle of an equipment transition at the end of the 1970s. You may wish to model the old vs new gear at 50:50 or so, with the units in Germany showing the new gear (I'd guess they had priority). Things like the VTT APC and the AMX-10 IFV, but also the infantry squad type: much of the French Army still had semiautomatic rifles at the time and the FAMAS assault rifle had only commenced fielding around 1978 or so. It will all make for an interesting variety of units, and the NATO player may find the I Corps in France has a bit less oomph in counter-attacking than hoped for.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

Special French formation: ZFR (Rhine Crossing Zone). Three units of the sort shown below, named "ZFR 1", "ZFR 12", and "ZFR 16" (numbered for the bridging regiments); set proficiency IAW other units in scenario.

Cheers