The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

[Lowpe]

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

[PaxMondo]

Very interesting, pretty close to my old testing.

Somewhere the devs said that the GP/AP bomb choice was based upon target that the group thinks it is going to hit. So, CL and up in the target and high DL was the rule I found. Since the data is at the device level, not the plane level not sure that there is any difference on model. I couldn't find any in my testing, but there is clearly a lot of random due to the "perceived" target at time of launch. Meaning fairly frequently the group chose the wrong bomb type, or better to say it looked like GP was the default and AP needed the logic to trigger the switch and that trigger didn't work ~30% of the time when it should have. I did like 50 runs, so that ~30% has a fairly wide range on it … maybe 20%?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Aren't you taking advantage of the situation and sweeping in the North?

Good question. There are about 1,200 fighters at Shikuka. I could probably get 1:1 there with the Ki-83 if (and it's a big if lately as I found out recently) he doesn't use the P-47N and P-51D up high on CAP. When he's only got P-38s, Corsairs and Hellcats with the junk from 43 down below it's great.

I lost about 20 good 80exp IJAAF pilots over Kushiro in the recent sweeps there against only 250 planes in hex, so I do have to be a bit careful.

I did just sweep Kushiro again when it had only about 40 Hellcats, and that worked very well. About 25 Hellcats for 2 Georges lost. So when he does put CAP up over a base in range other than Shikuka I'll look to exploit it.

(From the 28th CR)[font="Trebuchet MS"]
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 42,370 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 33

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 32

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 12 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x N1K5-J George sweeping at 39370 feet[/font]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

If you do try something else maybe try the little crap Willows and Sonias too. It'd definitely test theories about plane speed being a factor and if durability matters as much as we think it does. Hard to isolate factors ( just like with CAP and radar and speed and manoeuvre and gun type for CAP vs sweeps).

Oh, and what about fighters? I've got a lot of Oscars I'd like to put to good use soon. Everything with armor should be okay, right? Faster than most bombers, armoured, decent bomb load and range.

For ships, it would be fun to see the differences in how many kamis + extra events (ammo storage or fuel explosions, etc) most often will knock a CV, CVL and CVE out of action. My experience would say it would take;

CV - 3 kami hits or two kami hits + ammo/fuel explosions
CVL - 2 kami hits or one kami hit + ammo/fuel explosions
CVE - 1-2 kami hits

[Mike Solli]

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

I agree. I have been changing selected training groups to kamis primarily because they can then fly CAP (and train to higher levels by flying a high percentage CAP).

So the 10 plane 30 pilots fighter groups will mostly become kami units to add to CAP coverage and use Ki-100, Oscar III/IV and Frank Ia airframes for IJAAF and N1K2, J2M2/3 and A6M8 for IJNAF.

The larger training units with 27 planes might also be converted, but I'l have o see how many pilots I have after the new trainees are ready. I'm still using a lot of FP units to train fighter pilots and they take significantly longer than the dedicated training groups. Those would also be good targets for kami conversions, flying the Jake, but of course that is a poor kami plane. I just have a lot of them.

Soon I also lose about 250 IJAAF fighter planes, which is crap. So I have to make up for that with kami groups flying CAP and moving stuff around a lot.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Very interesting, pretty close to my old testing.

Somewhere the devs said that the GP/AP bomb choice was based upon target that the group thinks it is going to hit. So, CL and up in the target and high DL was the rule I found. Since the data is at the device level, not the plane level not sure that there is any difference on model. I couldn't find any in my testing, but there is clearly a lot of random due to the "perceived" target at time of launch. Meaning fairly frequently the group chose the wrong bomb type, or better to say it looked like GP was the default and AP needed the logic to trigger the switch and that trigger didn't work ~30% of the time when it should have. I did like 50 runs, so that ~30% has a fairly wide range on it … maybe 20%?

Why would a GP bomb ever be better for a kami or naval strike? What is the logic there?

Does a GP bomb work more effectively on a tanker or troop carrier than an AP/SAP? It may start fires I guess, but not have as high a chance to sink the ships outright.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]April 30, 1945[/font]

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Allied sub advances continue. The Lagarto targets a TF near Manado twice and pays for it's persistence in the end, but does take an xAK down with her.

Frances target the Allies at night with no luck. I think I accidentally kept them on bomb loads and they went in from 8k with little chance.
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 30, 1945
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Sub attack near Naha at 91,74

Japanese Ships
PB Kiso Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SC Ch 39
TK Oita Maru
TK Koho Maru
TK Syoyo Maru
TK San Luis Maru
TK Ogura Maru #2
TK Kiyo Maru
PB Tokati Maru
PB Teimei Maru

Allied Ships
SS Plaice

SS Plaice launches 6 torpedoes at PB Kiso Maru

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Iba at 73,72

Japanese Ships
DD Kuwa
CL Sendai
DD Ume
DD Numakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Matsukaze

Allied Ships
SS Tigrone, hits 4

SS Tigrone launches 6 torpedoes at DD Kuwa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Manado at 76,101

Japanese Ships
xAKL Nanko Maru
xAKL Matsutan Maru
xAKL Chosen Maru
xAKL Bokuei Maru
xAKL Gyokurei Maru
xAKL Totai Maru
xAKL Keizan Maru
E No.68

Allied Ships
SS Lagarto

Captain of SS Lagarto elects not to launch torpedoes at this target

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Naha at 91,74

Japanese Ships
PB Kiso Maru, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
PB Tokati Maru

Allied Ships
SS Plaice

SS Plaice launches 6 torpedoes at PB Kiso Maru
Plaice diving deep ....
PB Tokati Maru attacking submerged sub ....
PB Tokati Maru is out of ASW ammo
PB Tokati Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Manado at 76,101

Japanese Ships
xAK France Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Matsutan Maru
xAKL Chosen Maru
xAKL Bokuei Maru
xAKL Gyokurei Maru
xAKL Totai Maru
xAKL Keizan Maru
E No.68

Allied Ships
SS Lagarto, hits 27, heavy damage

SS Lagarto launches 6 torpedoes at xAK France Maru
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]
The Allied fleet looks to be a little strung out. I'll set four groups to fly tomorrow from nearby bases. Two from the little islands south of Yokohama. One on Chichi and another on Iwo Jima. These will be fast DBs with a single A6M5 escort group from each base, all size two but with good supplies. Fingers crossed it's not a 200 plane VP hit for nothing.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

If you do try something else maybe try the little crap Willows and Sonias too. It'd definitely test theories about plane speed being a factor and if durability matters as much as we think it does. Hard to isolate factors ( just like with CAP and radar and speed and manoeuvre and gun type for CAP vs sweeps).

Oh, and what about fighters? I've got a lot of Oscars I'd like to put to good use soon. Everything with armor should be okay, right? Faster than most bombers, armoured, decent bomb load and range.

For ships, it would be fun to see the differences in how many kamis + extra events (ammo storage or fuel explosions, etc) most often will knock a CV, CVL and CVE out of action. My experience would say it would take;

CV - 3 kami hits or two kami hits + ammo/fuel explosions
CVL - 2 kami hits or one kami hit + ammo/fuel explosions
CVE - 1-2 kami hits

Generally speaking I am not up to watching combat replay during these kinds of tests. Too time consuming.

Fighters I have tested, including Oscar, carry GP bombs as do the Fighter Bombers. I will test them to see what kind of damage they do against an Essex. My guess is for CA/BB/CV you need penetration and fighters won't give you that.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

Kamikaze units can still fly CAP, but you simply cannot train in Escort or Sweep. I have found no evidence kamikaze fighters ram bombers at a higher percentage than normal fighters.

After making a kamikaze run, even if all planes are lost, the squadron is still present ready to be resupplied with fresh planes. You can put 10% of a kamikaze squadron on search too, if you would like to. Do searching kamikaze planes attack spotted ships? That I don't know.

[Lowpe]

When I played Tiemanj he would steam past invasion beaches for a day and then steam back into them.

I don't think that is the case here, you are probably right with a deep invasion somewhere. Port Arthur could be exceptionally nasty with a landing cutting the rail line, but that would be super ballsy, and bring into play 8000av that is frozen for now. However, as part of a Soviet activation tactic? I doubt he could whittle the garrison down fast enough to activate the Soviets early at this point of the game.

You might consider railing in 4 divisions into a reconned base and let the Allies consider that. It might dissuade an invasion within six hexes of that area (along the rail lines)...move them back out after a few days since the allied fleet seems to be taking their time.

But my guess is he is going where there are no rails initially, except for very weakly held bases that might support the main invasions.

Good luck with the small strike.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

When I played Tiemanj he would steam past invasion beaches for a day and then steam back into them.

I don't think that is the case here, you are probably right with a deep invasion somewhere. Port Arthur could be exceptionally nasty with a landing cutting the rail line, but that would be super ballsy, and bring into play 8000av that is frozen for now. However, as part of a Soviet activation tactic? I doubt he could whittle the garrison down fast enough to activate the Soviets early at this point of the game.

You might consider railing in 4 divisions into a reconned base and let the Allies consider that. It might dissuade an invasion within six hexes of that area (along the rail lines)...move them back out after a few days since the allied fleet seems to be taking their time.

But my guess is he is going where there are no rails initially, except for very weakly held bases that might support the main invasions.

Good luck with the small strike.

It's really about 14k AV now. Lots of arrivals, so yes, it is putting into play a lot of troops. Of course about 3k AV are needed for garrisons, and some divisions are still filling out, so it's not as overwhelmingly flexible as it could be. Still, I've got two stacks of 3.5k AV supported by a ton of arty sitting in strat mode ready to go somewhere. I've got an ID in every coastal base on the West coast of Korea helping build forts (somewhat last minute since I was focused on the other coastline as the most likely invasion destination after Shikuka). I now need to get stuff up to the Manuchurian costs around Port Arthur.

I like the interplay of intel, recon and my troop movements. I won't stop any one invasion if he has enough prepped for it. I would guess (as you've mentioned before here) that he has troops prepped for multiple bases and will pick and choose based on what I've got around. So maybe if I really don't want him to go for a certain area I should move there now and let him notice.

On the other hand, if it is a place like Port Arthur , it would be interesting to throw a few CD capable units on the open hexes to the sides and invest 5k AV of troops a day before he lands. I might be assuming too much here but I think his success landing off base is mostly that those hexes were not occupied. If I have arty of any kind, a fort or two built, or even better, a few DP guns on those hexes. I'd guess a whole lot of divisions and tank units would be 100% disabled. That could get fun.

The one base I'm unable to defend is Chefoo. If he wants that he's got it. No question. So maybe it's best to keep other bases more attractive until the last minute.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

Kamikaze units can still fly CAP, but you simply cannot train in Escort or Sweep. I have found no evidence kamikaze fighters ram bombers at a higher percentage than normal fighters.

After making a kamikaze run, even if all planes are lost, the squadron is still present ready to be resupplied with fresh planes. You can put 10% of a kamikaze squadron on search too, if you would like to. Do searching kamikaze planes attack spotted ships? That I don't know.

Not sure, but the amount of planes lost to search is staggering against the DS at this time in the war. If I want detection it costs 30 airframes a day.

The kami units flying CAP would have pilots that are trained to 45/65 with 60 defence and they'd fly 80% CAP in smaller industrial centres as additional CAP and advanced training. They'd fly at whatever altitude band I want based on the airframe and other planes in the base (i.e. Oscars at 5k and Jacks at 7k with Franks at 9k).

Their kami role would be secondary. I just can't fly CAP with dedicated training units, so the 10PP charge for kami conversion is very economical compared to buying 2E groups to use as IJAAF FB.

[Lowpe]

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.[:)]

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

[HansBolter]

Betties and Peggies seam to be the ones getting through most often in my current Ironman game in August '45.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Betties and Peggies seam to be the ones getting through most often in my current Ironman game in August '45.

How did you make the game last so long? Nicely done.[&o]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not sure how many players reach late game, and then have a strong enough fighter economy to convert trainers to kamikaze for CAP. Well done.[:)]

More kamikaze...

in getting hits and getting thru even tough AA, speed is definitely king -- more important than armor. Durability might be more important than armor, but it is speed gets planes thru and gets hits.

Against an Essex class 250gp bomb carrying kamikazes seem to get about 8 sys damage. SAP 250 about 20+ sys (big variation here as high as 36 as the planes penetrate and trigger other nasty things). On average.

Now getting thru the cap armor may well play some role, but probably minor.

Sonia, Willow are just plain crap, getting downed to flak in huge numbers, almost never any hits...it is speed that gets the hits. And this was with the armored Sonia. Plus they do almost 0 damage to Warships (although the lucky gun disablement does occur now and then).

Couldn't test the Patsy without breaking open the editor.

Basically five classes of kamikaze:

Those that are very very fast.
Those that carry SAP bombs. Still cannot find anything to carry a 500 SAP or 800 AP.
Everything else, which is still half decent against CVE, and ships below Destroyer.
Those that carry the 800kg GP.
The Betty2E

So, there you have it. Different air frames for different targets pretty much. Peggy T might be the best SAP carrying plane, Frances a bit faster but lesser SAP bomb load. In a single engine plane the Jill is good, but really slow.

To penetrate the Deathstar, I would go with lots and lots of Frank A or better yet Shinden/Kikka if within range. The shorter range probably means the landings would be targeted by those screamers.

A successful kamikaze program might very well change the target locations of the Deathstar and CVE escorts shepherding invasions...making them stand off the coastline more and or most likely causing the 4E to saturate the runways prior to any landing. It might actually make some beaches basically invulnerable until Japan's fighter economy is heavily degraded.

Well, I don't have lots and lots of Frank Ia left, so I'll have to eat around the edges for a while yet! [:D]

Thanks for the update on this. Again, it helps to get some more or less objective data, although a small sample. There might be some time soon where I could set up a test. We'll see. But at least I also have the active game testbed. Nothing like the real deal to test ideas. [:)]

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]May 1, 1945[/font]

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It's May, 1945!!! Still fighting! [&o]

The Japanese still hang onto a narrow 3k VP lead in this extended contest, and although I know that will soon be gone, it's a mark for me since my first time around the Allies were accumulating points quickly after horrific Japanese losses and jumping daily by hundreds in the VP count by this time in game. The lead is mostly based on a 3:1 advantage in troop loss points, even naval points, and almost even air points, with (so far) low strategic point losses. Base VPs are fickle and will diminish quickly as the Allies move forward and once supply lessens, so I have to concentrate on the permanent points.

Today I had four DB groups set to strike the rear trailers of the Allied mob, but only one group of Graces flew during one phase. That's a 1 for 8 strike ratio. Not happy. [:o][:@]

The one group did fine, got through thanks to their escorts and likely sank four and damaged three more xAKs. There were a lot more ships out here and I'm frustrated at the "...could not find target and returned to base" message for the Judys, only 5 hexes away!? [:@]

Anyway. I'll move on and keep some set at limited range again for tomorrow. The Allied main body appears to continue on it's track due West, South of Daito Shoto now. No indication yet of a turn of direction.
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 1, 1945
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Night Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 108,71

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
LST-706
LST-474

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 108,71

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 35
B7A2 Grace x 23

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1A Corsair x 5
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
F6F-5 Hellcat x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 13 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Art Young, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Gabriel Franchere, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Robert Morris
xAK Cyril G. Hopkins, Bomb hits 1, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Iolanda, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK George Chaffey, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Hecuba, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Henry Bergh, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B7A2 Grace releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Cyril G. Hopkins
Nakasawa G. gives his life for the Emperor by ramming xAK Cyril G. Hopkins
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK George Chaffey
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Hecuba
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Henry Bergh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

[obvert]

Here is the shot of the area and the number of ships here. Could have been a much better day. Really frustrating.

I'll keep the group from Iwo on for tomorrow since their escorts are untouched. I'm also preparing for some strikes from mainland bases and getting the KB warmed up and Sam's added to most fighter groups for upcoming strike possibilities. So far the Allies have not tried to strike at any of the nearby shipping, and they show a CAP of about 2,000 fighters, so I don't know how much strike capability he's brought along. I'm guessing not a lot.

[obvert]

Honshu is going to be especially flush with troops soon. A lot more IDs to fill out. So if he's not landing now it'll be that much harder in about a month.

This will also eat into supply, but the armaments pool is still massive, so I'm nt too worried about that. As long as the Burma Army retreats successfully there should be no shortage of armaments points for the rest of the viable gametime.