expanded The Next War 1979

[mussey]

Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict.

For continental warfare, which is mostly landwar, I can live with this. (For now).

It will be interesting to see how this scenario plays out in the Norwegian Sea, and Baltic/Skaggerak straights. The Soviets need to control or at least deny access to NATO naval if they choose to ampib assault along these coasts.

[boxof9]

Mr. Mussey you may find this interesting.

https://www.compassgames.com/military-s ... -1980.html

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)

Excellent, that's what I'm looking for. Previously, I mistakenly assumed that the Squads + were already up to modern equipment standards. Though not perfect, this gives infantry more accurate punch via-a-vis armor. Thanks.

Have you looked at the U.S. Berlin Brigade? Pretty sure they would not have had almost 80 SP M901 TOW ATGM carriers. One thing they should have is 90mm recoilless rifles. They had those because ATGMs were only somewhat useful in the urban warfare environment. This is a typical comment found on the internet.

Also, there are numerous reports that the Dragon was replaced (or supplemented) by the 90mm RR at squad level. In addition, it appears as though each battalion had a unit of M113s (of undetermined number), and at least some M125s. At least several individuals have posted on Tank-Net that the Brigade units were significantly overstrength.

(On the M901's: Apparently first produced in 1979 [Source: Zaloga]. One quote I saw for length of production and vehicles completed indicates an average production capacity of 10 vehicles a week. So, by mid-1979, there may have been some 200 examples of this kind of vehicle in service. [According to Janes, there were some 1100 examples in U.S. Army Europe at some point in 1981.] Note the predecessor vehicle was what the database calls the M150, equipment #1019.)

BTW, re: HAWK missiles, the Wiki article on that missile says that the U.S. Army had completed migration to I-HAWK by 1978.

Cheers

[mussey]

OK. I conducted a short 3-turn dry run and units are deploying where they should. I noticed some orbat inconsistencies that needed correction, and finally completed the Norwegian and Danish armies. On Cathar's introduction of Keegan's 1979 World Armies, I purchased a copy ($10!) and used it to go through orbats that were not already covered. We were pretty close on most. Soonly, I will conduct another test for the entire game period to ensure deployments.

For the air war, I left all units to their own orders and the Soviets were slaughtered. I will need to change this, but not decided on how/what. I might reduce unit ranges and have more targeted hexes closer to home. (Soviets were bombing England, not sure they would want to do this at this stage?)

[cathar1244]

You got Keegan's work for a great price. Although it gets some things wrong, it is considered a very solid reference.

You're probably right about reining in the aircraft ranges. Only Soviet strategic air should be hitting the UK initially. Frontal aviation would have concentrated on the air war above the ground fighting.

What version of TOAW IV are you running? I'd like to look at the scenario, but I'm on the old TOAW IV version that doesn't support the massive new scenario files.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

the Soviets were slaughtered.

Not sure if this is the same in your mod, but the original version of this scenario has Allied air units set at 90% proficiency and the Soviets at 75%.

Not sure if I'm comfortable with that. The Soviets certainly trained hard. Yes, our air crew were superb. But were the Soviets that far behind? Perhaps I'm all washed up with these thoughts.

At any rate, if that proficiency gap still exists in the scenario, it is contributing to their defeat in the air.

Cheers

[mussey]

What version of TOAW IV are you running? I'd like to look at the scenario, but I'm on the old TOAW IV version that doesn't support the massive new scenario files.

V4.1.0.4

For front line air units: Soviets 72%, NSWP 70%, many NATO 85% or less. This seems about right (?).

Edit: Maybe I should get info on training hours to better reflect this...?

[cathar1244]

Thanks, I'm still on the Nov 2017 version. I wish that your version had been the download version when I purchased the software three months ago.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers

Sorry for the delay. Here it is.

[mussey]

As of 3/4/2019, all comments should be directed to my new The Next War 1979 - Expanded (Beta 1.0) thread.


OK. I have made several dry runs and reinforcements are showing where and when they should. The orbats are finished (but always room for improvement) with the conclusion of the Austrian Army. Soon, I will be posting a beta version for play testing, and then we will can get some feedback from this community. We are almost there. [8D]

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers

Sorry for the delay. Here it is.

Thanks Mussey!

Cheers

[cathar1244]

Mussey,

Sent you a PM with some information.

Cheers

[redwolf]

Is this available for testing? I don't think it has been uploaded anywhere, has it?

[cathar1244]

Mussey,

Note on Leopard I tanks in 1979. TOAW offers three varieties of this vehicle; the ones in the scenario should be either "Leopard 1" or "Leopard 1 (Late)". I don't think there are any Leopard 1 (Early) in the scenario and that is okay. However --

The "Late" version in the game depicts a very advanced sighting and fire control system. This is okay for 1979, but only for these cases:

One-third of the Belgian Leopard 1's (about 110 tanks with the upgrade). (The others did not get the upgrade until the 1980s).
The Canadian Leopard 1's.

All others, including the German ones, should be "Leopard 1" (not "early" or "late").

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Note on Leopard I tanks in 1979. TOAW offers three varieties of this vehicle; the ones in the scenario should be either "Leopard 1" or "Leopard 1 (Late)". I don't think there are any Leopard 1 (Early) in the scenario and that is okay. However --

The "Late" version in the game depicts a very advanced sighting and fire control system. This is okay for 1979, but only for these cases:

One-third of the Belgian Leopard 1's (about 110 tanks with the upgrade). (The others did not get the upgrade until the 1980s).
The Canadian Leopard 1's.

All others, including the German ones, should be "Leopard 1" (not "early" or "late").

Cheers

Excellent, finished this this morning. I replied to your PM.

One more 2-turn play test and I should be ready for Beta.

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Note on Leopard I tanks in 1979. TOAW offers three varieties of this vehicle; the ones in the scenario should be either "Leopard 1" or "Leopard 1 (Late)". I don't think there are any Leopard 1 (Early) in the scenario and that is okay. However --

The "Late" version in the game depicts a very advanced sighting and fire control system. This is okay for 1979, but only for these cases:

One-third of the Belgian Leopard 1's (about 110 tanks with the upgrade). (The others did not get the upgrade until the 1980s).
The Canadian Leopard 1's.

All others, including the German ones, should be "Leopard 1" (not "early" or "late").

Cheers

Excellent, finished this this morning. I replied to your PM.

One more 2-turn play test and I should be ready for Beta.

Mussey,

Are you good on which German units had Leo 1's vice Leo 2's? I can check that from German sources if you wish.

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

ORIGINAL: mussey

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Note on Leopard I tanks in 1979. TOAW offers three varieties of this vehicle; the ones in the scenario should be either "Leopard 1" or "Leopard 1 (Late)". I don't think there are any Leopard 1 (Early) in the scenario and that is okay. However --

The "Late" version in the game depicts a very advanced sighting and fire control system. This is okay for 1979, but only for these cases:

One-third of the Belgian Leopard 1's (about 110 tanks with the upgrade). (The others did not get the upgrade until the 1980s).
The Canadian Leopard 1's.

All others, including the German ones, should be "Leopard 1" (not "early" or "late").

Cheers

Excellent, finished this this morning. I replied to your PM.

One more 2-turn play test and I should be ready for Beta.

Mussey,

Are you good on which German units had Leo 1's vice Leo 2's? I can check that from German sources if you wish.

Cheers

Any clarification on this will be appreciated.

[cathar1244]

Mussey,

Okay Leo-1 versus Leo-2 was easy. Leo-2's did not start arriving until late October 1979. But there are some oddballs out there. Bold part of numbers indicate the brigade to which the battalions were assigned.

PzBtl 234 (Mountain Div) equipped with M48-90mm in 1977
PzBtl 243 (Mountain Div) equipped with M48-105mm in 1979 (was 90mm M48 prior to)
PzBtl 244 (Mountain Div) M48-90mm
PzBtl 363 (12th Pz Div) M48-105mm
PzBtl 364 (12th Pz Div) M48-105mm
PzJgBtl 44 (2nd PG Div) Jagdpanzer Kanone
PzBtl 123 (4th PG Div) M48-105mm
PzBtl 124 (4th PG Div) M48-105mm
PzBtl 114 (4th PG Div) M48-105mm
PzBtl 174 (6th Pz Div) M48-105mm
PzBtl 164 (6th Pz Div) M48-105mm

Edit: On Leo 2's, the dump file you posted shows 33 of them arriving as part of a turn 4 replacement group. Since they began arriving in October 1979, this could be okay, but I assume there should be field units showing the Leo II as an equipment item with none (?) initially present to take the replacement vehicles.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

On corps Panzer regiments in the Bundeswehr. IIRC, Keegan mentions one Panzer regiment per corps. Tracked these today at website of the German government's Office for Military History. Only two of the three were formed in the first half of the 1970s. These two were then disbanded in 1975 and used to form Panzer brigades that were part of the regular divisional orders of battle.

Cheers