Better Understanding Spying & Intelligence

[Dorky8]

I have several questions about S&I

It is my understanding that if one country has completed S&I research its allies also get the research benefit (1% per chit & breakthrough increase)

Is it correct? That is if GB has level 3 S&I and US/SU level 0 that US/SU get the level 3 benefit from GB?

If so does the US/SU get the benefit even before they enter the war?

How much does the breakthrough possibility increase over 45% for each chit advantage.


How are intelligence reports (seeing opponents units)impacted by S&I. Are they the same as the highest researched or do they increase when ALL Allies research research S&I?


What is the "catch up" increase impact of S&I research?


Many Questions

I'm sure its in the forum somewhere.

Thank You

[Taxman66]

There's a link where this is discussed in detail, but I can't find it.

In short:
You compare a Country's S&I level vs. the highest level on the other side. If it is greater then you get a bonus (+1% per difference) to both your base rate and to the chance for breakthrough.
If the Country's S&I level is not greater than the highest level on the other side, no bonus is granted.

In your example if the UK is at 3 and the US & SU are at 0, then the UK would get a bonus if GE & IT are at 2 or less and the US & SU would not.
However, GE & IT would also not get a bonus because the highest Allied S&I is at 3.

Breakthrough chances are static no matter what your current % research is at.
You do get double chance (~5% -> 10% before other modifiers) if the Tech has 2 chits currently invested.

[Dorky8]

Thank you that helps

I've been playing a while and still find it kind of confusing.

I) First there is "catch up" where if your opponent has a higher level research in a category your research is accelerated by 1%

Is this before US/SU enter war?

If GE is level 2 infantry does the catch up for SU work or level 3 infantry?


II) there is research sharing where the US/GB (no SU) and GE/IT share research up 1% to speed up research sort of friends catch up.

Is this before US/IT enter the war?


III) I thought that if GB has level 3 S&I and US/SU/GE & IT all are at level 0 that GB/US/SU all get the 3% benefit but you say it isn't so just GB gets benefit. So every country is responsible for their own S&I.



The manual is sort of confusing & dated.

for example from the manual

"Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression. "

Doesn't this statement contradict itself?


IV) Last there is the spotting improvement which the manual says 1% but it has to be higher than that once you get high level of S&I you see many enemy units

[Taxman66]

S&I: Yes, if only 1 country invests for a side, it does provide S&I 'defense' for the whole side. There are advantages to having multiple countries invest though: 1) Higher chance that one will get a break through to provide a bonus vs. the enemy and a higher defense vs. the enemy; and 2) You get more Intelligence enemy unit reveals, as that is cumulative or a separate roll (I think if 2 countries have it, it would be 2 rolls/chances to reveal per enemy unit). I think the reveal chance is 1% per level so 3% at maximum.

Yes, the manual isn't clear which is why there was a long discussion which I wanted to point you to, but can't find.


'Catch Up' applies a bonus when your level is behind that of your opponents. I also believe it is cumulative. I think the only restriction is that you don't get a 'catch up' bonus if you are behind a neutral power on the other side. e.g. Germany (level 0 Industry) does not get a catch up bonus from a neutral USA (level 1 or higher Industry); However, the USA does get the bonus from Germany (since Germany is not neutral).

'Sharing' works like 'Catch up', but on friendly sides and only when the countries are at war. It only applies when 1 country has a higher level than the other (e.g. If Italy researches Inf Weapons 1 before going to war while Germany already has Inf Weapons 1, Italy will get no bonus. However, once Italy goes to war she will get a 1% sharing bonus (or 2% if Germany is at level 2).

I think, but could be mistaken, that the USSR no sharing is one way not both. I think they get a sharing bonus from UK & USA, but will not provide one if they are ahead in an area. It's not a big deal because it is pretty rare that the USSR is ahead (perhaps Advanced Tanks or Anti Tank later in the war).

Aside:
The Catch Up rule used to apply always no matter war status, until it was pointed out that Germany would get a bonus for USA Industry research before the UK would.

[Dorky8]

It is all very clear now.

Thank you to for taking the time to help me out.

I'm sure many other players will also benefit from your info.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Dorky8

"Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression. "

Doesn't this statement contradict itself?

Hi

Let me put it another way: the enemy having a higher S&I level won't reduce normal research rates, it will only prevent your own S&I from making your research any faster.

Hopefully that explains it better?

[Sugar]

Or let me put it another way: the only reason to research S&I is, you don't want your opponent to be faster than yourself. If both would agree, both would save the MPPs and research at the same speed on the same level.

[Dorky8]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Or let me put it another way: the only reason to research S&I is, you don't want your opponent to be faster than yourself. If both would agree, both would save the MPPs and research at the same speed on the same level.

I find the S&I to be an interesting part of the game but people choosing not an option to some people I guess.

Intelligence was a key part of the war (Midway)that the Allies invested heavily in and the Germans didn't if I recall.

S&I is one of those quiet complexities of the game that if you don't mange it well will hurt your chance of winning.

Thanks Tax & Bill for helping me understand better.

[Sugar]

I agree, too sad the only way to benefit from researching is if you manage to secure an advantage over the enemy, otherwise you don't benefit at all, no matter how much you spent and what lvl you achieved. Even then there's the catchup bonus and allies share.

I find it very unsatisfying how the mechanics is working right now: if Germany ann Italy both reached S&I lvl 3, GB is also at 3, US and SU are at 0, every nation is researching at exactly the same speed, because only the highest opponent`s lvl decides the comparison, it's therefore completely redundant to continue researching S&I, if any of your allies has reached the highest lvl.

[Taxman66]

I find the unit reveals to be beneficial, and you get more of them (by increasing your attempt/rolls) by having multiple countries research S&I.

[sPzAbt653]

Higher chance that one will get a break through

To me this is the most important factor of S&I. I can't comprehend all the other 1-2% stuff, but when I see a 'Research Breakthrough' it's like hitting the jackpot in Vegas [8D]

[Maybe this attitude is specific to 653N due to its' reduced number of Research Categories, but I tend to think not].

[Sugar]

Sure, revealing hidden units and breakthroughs are nice to have, but from what I know their probability is the same for either side if there's no difference in the lvl of S%I, and only the highest lvl of each side is decisive.

[Dorky8]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

I agree, too sad the only way to benefit from researching is if you manage to secure an advantage over the enemy, otherwise you don't benefit at all, no matter how much you spent and what lvl you achieved. Even then there's the catchup bonus and allies share.

I find it very unsatisfying how the mechanics is working right now: if Germany ann Italy both reached S&I lvl 3, GB is also at 3, US and SU are at 0, every nation is researching at exactly the same speed, because only the highest opponent`s lvl decides the comparison, it's therefore completely redundant to continue researching S&I, if any of your allies has reached the highest lvl.

I see your point. What suggestions do you guys have to improve the S&I. Seems too easy just to have one country invest and all allies are covered and that breakthru isn't impacted more somehow.

I have learned to like the reveals, at first I thought who needs to see all these garrisons but its revealed some major strategies of my opponents

[Sugar]

Simple:

"Each new level of Spying & Intelligence increases your own research bonus by 1% and decreases your opponent’s bonus by 1%. If the enemy’s intelligence level is higher than yours, then it will just negate your own Spying & Intelligence. It won’t reduce your per turn base research % progression. "

The first part of the message has to be true under all circumstances: if one is researching S%I, he should get a benefit in every case, no matter if his opponent is researching S%I himself. There must be a difference between nations developing S%I lvl 2 compared to 0, even if other nations have got higher lvls. I`m pretty sure there are mathematical ways to calculate the outcome.

[Veloz]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Higher chance that one will get a break through

To me this is the most important factor of S&I. I can't comprehend all the other 1-2% stuff, but when I see a 'Research Breakthrough' it's like hitting the jackpot in Vegas [8D]

[Maybe this attitude is specific to 653N due to its' reduced number of Research Categories, but I tend to think not].

right is the most important invest of the game