The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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obvert
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

[font="Times New Roman"]May 8, 1945[/font]
The Allies look lie they're hedging bets and land on another island, Iriomote near Formosa with a Marine ID. They tried a small APD drop earlier but I reinforced. The Marines will defeat the regiment there now, but there are 5 forts, so it may take a few days. This base has fields 2 and port 1 so will be more serviceable, ad farther from the HI.

A few short range strikes suddenly are enveloped by DS CAP as again the mob zags back South. I'll just turn everything off for a while. This is his goal of course. It's all meant to eat up strikes and entice me to turn them off so ops can move freely even without DS cover. This turn lost 90 strike and escort to about 25 for the Allies.

The one caveat is that all of this takes time. We're nearly 1/3 through May 45 and the IJ still holds a 2k+ VP lead. Completely beyond my expectations for this game.

Where will the Allies land the BIG ONE?
[font="Trebuchet MS"][/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 8, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub attack near Daito Shoto at 98,68

Japanese Ships
E No.37, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
E No.49

Allied Ships
SS Boarfish, hits 15, heavy damage

SS Boarfish launches 6 torpedoes at E No.37

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Iriomote at 89,65

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 29
N1K2-J George x 17
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 22

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 9
FM-2 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1A Corsair x 10
F4U-1D Corsair x 29
F6F-5 Hellcat x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 10 destroyed, 5 damaged
B6N2a Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
N1K2-J George: 4 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
DE Richard W. Suesens
xAK Cape Saunders, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
APA Feland
LSI(L) Empire Pride
APA Ormsby
LSI(L) Australia Star

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B6N2a Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Iriomote (89,65)

TF 582 troops unloading over beach at Iriomote, 89,65

Allied ground losses:
190 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 47 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 49 disabled

Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (1 destroyed, 16 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (0 destroyed, 10 disabled)

0.5in M2HB AAMG x4 dropped into water during unload of 6th Marine Div /6
13 troops of a USMC Rifle Squad 44 lost in surf during unload of 6th Marine Div /13

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Iriomote (89,65)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 2492 troops, 20 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 73

Defending force 22573 troops, 297 guns, 201 vehicles, Assault Value = 695

Japanese ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
41st Ind.Mixed Regiment
III/84th Naval Guard Unit

Defending units:
503rd Parachute Rgt /2
XI Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
6th Marine Div /3
2/16th Field Rgt /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color][/font]

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Keep chipping away. He's got limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage until he captures somewhere.

No replacement planes once the CVE replenishment squadrons are exhausted as well...


Au contraire. IRL the USN fleet train was massive by mid 1945 and it is equally so in AE if properly set up by the Allied player. "Somewhere" has already been captured, there is therefore no "limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage". Ditto for the VR squadrons.

The Allied position will be improved once an already fully built up port/airfield is captured but he already has the real estate to tide him over until that developed base is captured.

Alfred

The fleet train is significant in size, but limited in ability by ops points. If Allied ships are in continual heavy combat it will make rearming/refuelling much more difficult.

- Tenders are limited in their ability to rearm by ops points.
- Tankers are limited in their ability to refuel by ops points and fuel cargo.
- Repairs are limited to minor damage, except if CR has brought a ARD. Given the speed of the operation I doubt this.

With VR squadrons, once the initial excess planes are flown off, there's no way for the CVE's to draw replacements.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Keep chipping away. He's got limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage until he captures somewhere.

No replacement planes once the CVE replenishment squadrons are exhausted as well...


Au contraire. IRL the USN fleet train was massive by mid 1945 and it is equally so in AE if properly set up by the Allied player. "Somewhere" has already been captured, there is therefore no "limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage". Ditto for the VR squadrons.

The Allied position will be improved once an already fully built up port/airfield is captured but he already has the real estate to tide him over until that developed base is captured.

Alfred

The fleet train is significant in size, but limited in ability by ops points. If Allied ships are in continual heavy combat it will make rearming/refuelling much more difficult.

- Tenders are limited in their ability to rearm by ops points.
- Tankers are limited in their ability to refuel by ops points and fuel cargo.
- Repairs are limited to minor damage, except if CR has brought a ARD. Given the speed of the operation I doubt this.

With VR squadrons, once the initial excess planes are flown off, there's no way for the CVE's to draw replacements.

I'm sure he's getting good advice in his AAR, but he's also just done something similar against JIII and probably has ideas no how to improve.

He's gone for two bases. One is going to provide some immediate air cover. Both are in range of big IJ fields, so aren't secure for long term options, just a quick retreat or return to base cover, and he can change orders the next day again.

Two things make sense.

1. He needs a landing on the mainland somewhere or on the Home Islands. Other islands aren't going to cut it in the long term, and he needs to be concerned about delays to the final objective.

2. He would be well established for anything once a base is captured that has a repair yard and big port capacity.

There are many spots on the mainland of China in range he could capture. Which did he prep for?

The are a few options for repair yards. Pescadores is the easiest, but also the smallest. Shanghai is obviously attractive. So is PortArthur. Probably less so Hong Kong, but it's in pretty close range too.

For replacements he does have near enough bases to be in range form LBA.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Keep chipping away. He's got limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage until he captures somewhere.

No replacement planes once the CVE replenishment squadrons are exhausted as well...


Au contraire. IRL the USN fleet train was massive by mid 1945 and it is equally so in AE if properly set up by the Allied player. "Somewhere" has already been captured, there is therefore no "limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage". Ditto for the VR squadrons.

The Allied position will be improved once an already fully built up port/airfield is captured but he already has the real estate to tide him over until that developed base is captured.

Alfred

The fleet train is significant in size, but limited in ability by ops points. If Allied ships are in continual heavy combat it will make rearming/refuelling much more difficult.

- Tenders are limited in their ability to rearm by ops points.
- Tankers are limited in their ability to refuel by ops points and fuel cargo.
- Repairs are limited to minor damage, except if CR has brought a ARD. Given the speed of the operation I doubt this.

With VR squadrons, once the initial excess planes are flown off, there's no way for the CVE's to draw replacements.

Ops points do not disadvantage an anchored fleet train compared to natural port operations. It is therefore irrelevant in this context.

Alfred
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Keep chipping away. He's got limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage until he captures somewhere.

No replacement planes once the CVE replenishment squadrons are exhausted as well...


Au contraire. IRL the USN fleet train was massive by mid 1945 and it is equally so in AE if properly set up by the Allied player. "Somewhere" has already been captured, there is therefore no "limited ability to rearm and refuel, and no ability to repair damage". Ditto for the VR squadrons.

The Allied position will be improved once an already fully built up port/airfield is captured but he already has the real estate to tide him over until that developed base is captured.

Alfred

The fleet train is significant in size, but limited in ability by ops points. If Allied ships are in continual heavy combat it will make rearming/refuelling much more difficult.

- Tenders are limited in their ability to rearm by ops points.
- Tankers are limited in their ability to refuel by ops points and fuel cargo.
- Repairs are limited to minor damage, except if CR has brought a ARD. Given the speed of the operation I doubt this.

With VR squadrons, once the initial excess planes are flown off, there's no way for the CVE's to draw replacements.

You should load up the Allied side and try it.

You can replenish even BB ammo at sea (I don't think that is WAD...) with sufficient AE/AKE. Combine with AOs. There are dozens of each.

I was replenishing my big BB bombardment TFs several times each with a single AE TF that was part of my fleet. And that was just 1 of 2 AE groups, without even using all the AEs.

Basically, I think you're underestimating the limitations on the Allies. Yes, all of the things you stated are technically correct, but in practice they're not huge factors.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Capt. Harlock »

Basically, I think you're underestimating the limitations on the Allies. Yes, all of the things you stated are technically correct, but in practice they're not huge factors.

Wouldn't that be overestimating the limitations, as in underestimating the Allied capabilities?
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Basically, I think you're underestimating the limitations on the Allies. Yes, all of the things you stated are technically correct, but in practice they're not huge factors.

Wouldn't that be overestimating the limitations, as in underestimating the Allied capabilities?

Errr, yes. Yes it would.

Seems you knew what I meant [:D]
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

So. I have a problem.

Opening the next turn I discovered that units I've put into strat mode all moved one hex and then changed to move mode with no movement orders.

I've never seen anything like this, and it's consistent across more than a dozen units leaving from about five different bases.



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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by tolsdorff »

Perhaps the railway to their destination got cut by enemy landings/para droppings?
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

Perhaps the railway to their destination got cut by enemy landings/para droppings?
Seems quite probable
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

It is a unit landed on the rail, at 90, 51. While a good move, it has caused a breakdown in the strat move process and revealed a buggy result.

Although the troops began moving, left their original bases, sometime in the turn replay afterward the unit landed on the rail and something flipped for the units in strat mode instructed to move past this point. They instantly went to move mode, no orders, and were stuck outside a base. All of them.

This obviously isn't a tenable situation, and although it's unfortunate, we'll have to go backwards. I'll propose a few options to Dan to keep his move intact but allow some change of orders without disrupting too much else. The easiest would be for him to land a day later there and let me change orders for units so they would all be destined for a base near that point on the non-interrupted side. Aside from that I think the only other option is to go back a full turn and allow me to change strat order destinations, but that would mean both of us doing an entire new turn, which is not good. Hopefully he has a middturn save to work from.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Lowpe »

Upriver. So sad to see it.[:(]

So, you have experienced a bit of the Obvert bug, because it has happened to me numerous times in our game. It has happened to me several times even when the rail lines haven't been cut with a 100% certainty.

It sucks, I have simply taken my lumps (which hurt) and moved on ascribing it to inferior rail lines, partisan attacks, special forces cutting rail lines, air attacks or screwed up orders.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by GetAssista »

Assigning all the troubled units to strat to Pengpu would be fine as a redo, no?
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
So, you have experienced a bit of the Obvert bug, because it has happened to me numerous times in our game. It has happened to me several times even when the rail lines haven't been cut with a 100% certainty.
It can happen when there are multiple possible RR routes, and the route that the unit has chosen at the start was cut. You will still see other routes as open and available, but for the unit, the damage is already done.
It is also annoying when units choose RR route through hexes with enemy units present (but hexsides still open) in favor of other routes that are fully open, and end up derailed
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Upriver. So sad to see it.[:(]

So, you have experienced a bit of the Obvert bug, because it has happened to me numerous times in our game. It has happened to me several times even when the rail lines haven't been cut with a 100% certainty.

It sucks, I have simply taken my lumps (which hurt) and moved on ascribing it to inferior rail lines, partisan attacks, special forces cutting rail lines, air attacks or screwed up orders.


Oddly, I too have experienced this even in an AI game. Never had it happen on the scale it has here though. Definitely sucks.

So the answer is to get a mulligan to freely redo movement now that you know the rail will be blocked?

Hardly seems fair to the player who risked his unit to block the rail.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

It can happen when there are multiple possible RR routes, and the route that the unit has chosen at the start was cut.

It can happen on uncut rail lines too, and rail lines into a contested city even though you always had hexside control.

The whole situation just plain sucks. In my game with Tiemanj I stuffed that river with DP & CD gun units, mines, and none of them ever worked. Inland rivers, the definition of constricted waters. Sigh. I never was invaded there though, and I had speculated earlier in this AAR that CD guns and mines might work on an invasion just not on ships traversing which is a joke when you consider the power of CD gun units against ships traversing other constricted bases.

I have no clue as to what Obvert actually had on the river...looks like no mines.

Just another frustrating end game experience.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by HansBolter »

Mines don't work in rivers. I tested it thoroughly on this very river in my current game.

Hankow has been under siege for 4 years in my game and the AI kept running shipping up the river to supply it.

I tried everything to stop it to no avail. Mines simply don't work in rivers because rivers run on hex sides.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Upriver. So sad to see it.[:(]

So, you have experienced a bit of the Obvert bug, because it has happened to me numerous times in our game. It has happened to me several times even when the rail lines haven't been cut with a 100% certainty.

It sucks, I have simply taken my lumps (which hurt) and moved on ascribing it to inferior rail lines, partisan attacks, special forces cutting rail lines, air attacks or screwed up orders.

Huh. I obviously didn't know the extent of the problem, but I do remember you having some kind of issue.

This is akin to a train moving out 40 miles down the track, then stopping, dumping the troops and their gear with lightning speed next to the tracks, and speeding away back home! It's not just for one unit, and it's so far from the destination I never would have considered that could happen.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Upriver. So sad to see it.[:(]

So, you have experienced a bit of the Obvert bug, because it has happened to me numerous times in our game. It has happened to me several times even when the rail lines haven't been cut with a 100% certainty.

It sucks, I have simply taken my lumps (which hurt) and moved on ascribing it to inferior rail lines, partisan attacks, special forces cutting rail lines, air attacks or screwed up orders.


Oddly, I too have experienced this even in an AI game. Never had it happen on the scale it has here though. Definitely sucks.

So the answer is to get a mulligan to freely redo movement now that you know the rail will be blocked?

Hardly seems fair to the player who risked his unit to block the rail.

It's not a Mulligan. It's fixing a bug without causing problems to Dan's cutting of the rail. My units won't move beyond his block. They'll have to be set to move just short of it. It would be an agreement, like any other, to respect the plausible over the implausible and game integrity over irreparable bugs.

I won't interfere with him cutting the rail, and he'll actually know for certain I am moving in troops by rail, so if anything it gives him an intel advantage.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

So the answer is to get a mulligan to freely redo movement now that you know the rail will be blocked?

Hardly seems fair to the player who risked his unit to block the rail.

My solution with Obvert was to take my lumps and play on. It has happened a lot, and at the most inopportune times, but always in China/Manchuko/Korea.
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

It can happen when there are multiple possible RR routes, and the route that the unit has chosen at the start was cut.

It can happen on uncut rail lines too, and rail lines into a contested city even though you always had hexside control.

The whole situation just plain sucks. In my game with Tiemanj I stuffed that river with DP & CD gun units, mines, and none of them ever worked. Inland rivers, the definition of constricted waters. Sigh. I never was invaded there though, and I had speculated earlier in this AAR that CD guns and mines might work on an invasion just not on ships traversing which is a joke when you consider the power of CD gun units against ships traversing other constricted bases.

I have no clue as to what Obvert actually had on the river...looks like no mines.

Just another frustrating end game experience.

I also tested CD guns on some straits near Para, and couldn't get them to work there with ships passing.

No mines on the river, and pretty dumb no unit on the rail hex, but in fact it wouldn't matter in this case as long as he could land the unit even if I still controlled the hex and he never kicked me out. The units would still knock out of strat mode 500-1000 miles away, which is just plain silly! [:D]
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