8MP Team Game - The Axis team

[HardLuckYetAgain]

If you stop “Trolling” I would stop likewise with calling you Telemecus. You have been constantly doing that on my post with exception of one that I can see.

[ledo]

Okey doke. Feel free to keep calling me whatever you like, I'm just saying you're demonstrably wrong. [8|]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: ledo

Okey doke. Feel free to keep calling me whatever you like, I'm just saying you're demonstrably wrong. [8|]

Wrong on what? Seems to me you want to prove everything I say is wrong. You can reply in a PM or email to get it off the forum if you have a problem with me we can chat there.

I can likewise say you are demonstrably wrong too 8|

[ledo]

That i'm telemecus? Anyway cool, I'm happy to stop this disconnected back and forth.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: ledo

That i'm telemecus? Anyway cool, I'm happy to stop this disconnected back and forth.

Great! My PM and email both work if you ever need to chat.

[EwaldvonKleist]

I can attest Ledo is not Telemecus, that is simply redicolous. Two people with different spreadsheet format with different word choice with different interests etc.

It isn’t as big of an investment as you think. Along with Soviet factories only being in certain key locations. Also not to mention AA through the roof to boot and and and.

I never argued that strat bombing to be war winning. I am saying it is a pipe dream if you think you are going to achieve the results that was done in this AAR if you are playing someone that is competent with Soviet Air.

We all agree with solid sov play We wont see the huge effect it had in this game. Yet
AA=Ap investment, manpower and arms and every fighter allocated for strat bomb defence is not somewhere else. The beauty of this is you have sort of a "strat bomb in being", drawing constantly sov resources if they want to def.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I can attest Ledo is not Telemecus, that is simply redicolous. Two people with different spreadsheet format with different word choice with different interests etc.

It isn’t as big of an investment as you think. Along with Soviet factories only being in certain key locations. Also not to mention AA through the roof to boot and and and.

I never argued that strat bombing to be war winning. I am saying it is a pipe dream if you think you are going to achieve the results that was done in this AAR if you are playing someone that is competent with Soviet Air.

We all agree with solid sov play We wont see the huge effect it had in this game. Yet
AA=Ap investment, manpower and arms and every fighter allocated for strat bomb defence is not somewhere else. The beauty of this is you have sort of a "strat bomb in being", drawing constantly sov resources if they want to def.

I dont care if Ledo is or is not Tele, I was going to be Trolled no matter what I typed. So was better to put him on the defensive. If Ledo was interested in debating his question being answered Ledo would have stuck to that question instead of Trolling semantics. Better still he could have used the PM/email I suggested at the end to talk further. But as of yet there has not been any PMs/emails further extrapolating in my mind this to be Trolling. By the way just to be clear the question I am referencing that was answered was, Ledo Quote, “The question is, is it still useful and to what extent can it still have an impact?” HardLuckYetAgain answer, “Against lethargic &/or inexperienced players in current state of game is my take on it.”

On your last part I believe we are agreeing. IF the Germans does get ahead in strategic bombing the effects can be exponential. It comes down to the experience of the players.

[Telemecus]

I have to thank EvK for messaging me that I am Ledo - that is one of the more bizarre things I have ever seen. I know Ledo is a nice guy and has been very put off, like others, by this kind of hostility on the site. I hope that can be corrected for him and to not put even more others off.

For the record I put about 95% of the air dominance to Soviet air doctrine settings, 3% to Soviet airbase placement and maybe 2% to recon spam.

For many turns we found the Soviet air doctrine for percentage required to fly was 50% (as documented in the allocations files uploaded to the AAR) and almost all fighter groups had less than 50% of the complement ready. It was a simple task to identify the dozen or so aircraft in air groups still able to fly by that percentage and shoot them down with fighter sweeps or air base bombing to leave no fighter coverage of the enemy at all. There were two turns at the end of the summer 41 period when the Soviet air force was badly damaged but pulled out of range of Axis fighter sweeps and for that exceptional opportunity recon spam was used extensively. By 42 we realised how the recon spam myth had grown so I started adding on lots of extra superfluos recon to feed the misperception. For a few turns I actually forgot to do it until the end so flew all the dummy recon missions when there were no fighters to intercept them. We were sure this would be picked up - and from some posts of M60 and EvK I thought they had - but by and large it never was. It was great fun flying lots of recon missions with no fighter interception to feed the perception that somehow recon was shooting down hundreds of Soviet fighters - indeed it may have got a bit too effective.

What is true is that spam recon can be effective in one location or against one or a few fighter groups. Overwhelming them with all of your recon can be effective against small parts of the Soviet air force. That is why you will see many missions in one place. I personally think scatter gunning recon all over is just training up any decent Soviet air force and is counter productive - I certainly never did that. What is fantasy is that the Soviet air force was primarily, or even subtantially harmed by recon spam. If the game was run with the same air doctrine and the same placement of air bases in the latest version then exactly the same could be done now (with the exception of two turns).

I think strategic bombing under all previous versions was quite easy to stop - you just need to disperse the Soviet fighters to the rear to protect industry as was historical and unlike how the game is usually played. I have revealed to EvK what the new startegic bombing campaign in 42 is and that would not have relied on a lack of Soviet fighter cover in the rear and so could still be effective.

In summary recon spam had a very very minor part to play in this game. The big lesson is do not leave your percentage required to fly air doctrine close to the percentage of ready aircraft in your air groups. And use some fighters to actually provide fighter cover over your industry.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus



Telemecus quote, "I know Ledo is a nice guy and has been very put off, like others, by this kind of hostility on the site. I hope that can be corrected for him and to not put even more others off."

The hostility was breed and started by Ledo with trolling on semantics. I hope that is the hostility you are referring to but I don't think you are since you are claiming he was a victim. So yes I hope crap like that gets corrected but it never does nor will it ever because of the hatred that some harbor. So when you are pointing the finger the other fingers are pointing back at you and others when you are referencing "hostility". Continuation of the talking points of Ledo or others as victims here is mute since you and others are not and NEVER have been.

The clear point no matter what the percentage is that Recon spamming was an exploit and has been taken out of the game for good reason. Maybe you and Ledo don't like the fact that I said it was the primary reason. Get over it and I am sorry it hurt your and his ego. We all know that there are a ton of moving pieces that have to be in place to make things work.

As of now I am putting you (Telemecus) and Ledo on ignore. To be honest I have always valued your input but this has gotten absurd with character attacks and hostility towards me.

[Crackaces]

I think HLYA is an excellent WITE player. I used to enjoy his posts as I learned much about this very complex game. One problem with online conversations is a loss of empathy. There are subtle signals we pick up in person we do not pick up online that allows our emotional impulsiveness and most primitive parts of our brain go un-modulated.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/18/s ... index.html

HYLA has been on two crusades. One is superman German Panzers, which he resorts to personal attacks rather than a logical argument, and the second is spam recon (which has been fixed from the standpoint of 2 recon per hex). My own personal decision is to simply ignore his posts. "Don't feed the trolls." It is sad I feel I have to do this as in between these rants HYLA has very intelligent things to express to the forum; however, in my opinion it is not worth enduring the rants and personal attacks.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

I can attest Ledo is not Telemecus, that is simply redicolous. Two people with different spreadsheet format with different word choice with different interests etc.

It isn’t as big of an investment as you think. Along with Soviet factories only being in certain key locations. Also not to mention AA through the roof to boot and and and.

I never argued that strat bombing to be war winning. I am saying it is a pipe dream if you think you are going to achieve the results that was done in this AAR if you are playing someone that is competent with Soviet Air.

We all agree with solid sov play We wont see the huge effect it had in this game. Yet
AA=Ap investment, manpower and arms and every fighter allocated for strat bomb defence is not somewhere else. The beauty of this is you have sort of a "strat bomb in being", drawing constantly sov resources if they want to def.

A couple of thoughts on Soviet AA:

1) It is very effective starting with the latest version -- so it is now worth building in my opinion . I have lost recon planes to AA <smile> let alone bombers ..

2) The heavier AA guns good against armor if it is matched up. An 85mm flak gun has a penetration of 121 and anti-armor of 22. This compared to say a 76mm ATG Penetration of 83 and anti-armor of 18. Can't say a guaranteed match up with a German tank but if you do and it hits .. "scratch 1 Pz III h .." So flak can have a chance at airplanes and tanks... then there is infantry squads

3) These weapons are not bad against infantry with a ROF 12 and anti-soft of 90 better than a 82mm motor anti-soft of 63 and a better rate of fire.

just a thought ..

[SparkleyTits]

A couple of thoughts on Soviet AA:

1) It is very effective starting with the latest version -- so it is now worth building in my opinion . I have lost recon planes to AA <smile> let alone bombers ..

2) The heavier AA guns good against armor if it is matched up. An 85mm flak gun has a penetration of 121 and anti-armor of 22. This compared to say a 76mm ATG Penetration of 83 and anti-armor of 18. Can't say a guaranteed match up with a German tank but if you do and it hits .. "scratch 1 Pz III h .." So flak can have a chance at airplanes and tanks... then there is infantry squads

3) These weapons are not bad against infantry with a ROF 12 and anti-soft of 90 better than a 82mm motor anti-soft of 63 and a better rate of fire.

just a thought ..

Ontop of what Aces stated AA is also great on more forward line HQ's as they reduce any air missions effectiveness.
Any opponent planes hit on their way to flying it's mission (Flying over your army HQ's with AA on them) gets sent back to base before it's get the chance to do any damage

I find they can be great all rounders indeed by using them on the frontlines depending on your opponents playstyle!
That said I don't usually build any as they can be pretty atrocious at attempting to hit anything when newly built and you can usually evactuate plenty from cities before they are eaten up

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

A couple of thoughts on Soviet AA:

1) It is very effective starting with the latest version -- so it is now worth building in my opinion . I have lost recon planes to AA <smile> let alone bombers ..

2) The heavier AA guns good against armor if it is matched up. An 85mm flak gun has a penetration of 121 and anti-armor of 22. This compared to say a 76mm ATG Penetration of 83 and anti-armor of 18. Can't say a guaranteed match up with a German tank but if you do and it hits .. "scratch 1 Pz III h .." So flak can have a chance at airplanes and tanks... then there is infantry squads

3) These weapons are not bad against infantry with a ROF 12 and anti-soft of 90 better than a 82mm motor anti-soft of 63 and a better rate of fire.

just a thought ..

Ontop of what Aces stated AA is also great on more forward line HQ's as they reduce any air missions effectiveness.
Any opponent planes hit on their way to flying it's mission (Flying over your army HQ's with AA on them) gets sent back to base before it's get the chance to do any damage

I find they can be great all rounders indeed by using them on the frontlines depending on your opponents playstyle!
That said I don't usually build any as they can be pretty atrocious at attempting to hit anything when newly built and you can usually evactuate plenty from cities before they are eaten up

+1

The "Plane X from the XYZ group turned away" result is not shown in anything besides message level 7? That is when I noticed just how effective Flak can be ...then one notices a lot more bombers shot down and a heck of a lot less damage ..

[Crackaces]

The title is a line from the song "Roads to Moscow." If you have never heard this ballad .. go to Youtube.

This AAR will continue as I play M60 1:1. It would be my hope that interest would arise and a team game develop again. There are lots more "negotiating" and consensus in a team game, where this game will now have one mind. I will be seeking advice and thoughts from an inner group, but overall the plan is from one commander.

I will start posting pictures once we get a few turns ahead. FOW is one of the both fun and challenging things about this game. I can say that M60 has foiled most of my planning to date. He has masterfully retreated behind rivers with fort level 2 ready to be fort level 3. Spies on both sides know the previous plans and our Southern plan was a secondary front wit the primary plan to attack in the center. However, it is clear the Soviets are very strong in the center near Tambov. It is worse than the historical Kursk position as strong Soviet Guards units are entrenched behind a minor river.

So the question remains .. where does the Wehrmacht go?

[SparkleyTits]

Good luck!

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Good luck!

Thank You! I will need it!

[Telemecus]

Turn 50 03-Jun-1942 South - A look back at Soviet turn 49

When turn 50 returns we find the Soviets were not able to break our pocket - indeed we lost not one man repelling one of their attacks.

[Telemecus]

Turn 50 03-Jun-1942 South - beender gives his view

There is only a narrow gap for South to launch an offensive between the mud of the weather zones on either side. But that is enough for beender, who had been our centre commander and got very bored with the mud to find an interest and make their suggestion. They see now as the opportunity to cross the river before fort levels build up, and use the mud further north to trap some units against for a pocket later.

[Telemecus]

Turn 50 03-Jun-1942 South - Options

And before you know it every body who has ever played on the Axis team is pitching in their ideas. Everybody that is except the actual South commander who is still asleep in America. While we all welcome advice - he may find this turn he is confronted with a bit too much information!

The different camps coalesce into three options all based on 3 identified weak points on the Donets defence. All agree there is an opportunity to cross with the sudden clear weather and with fort levels still low. Option A avoids crossing a major river, but will need multiple minor river crossings. Option B would give us potentially more units to be trapped against the mud further north this turn. While Option C is our route one to Stalingrad.

[Telemecus]

Turn 50 03-Jun-1942 South - Action

The after effects of having taken Sevastopol continue to reverberate. Having planned in advance for an FBD to follow close behind any advance in the south, the 11th army is able to rail right up to the front lines and take over much of the front. Our South commander is able to take both option B (with the 1st Panzer Army) and Option A (with 6th army) trapping a small pocket between them and a further group of units against the mud zone to the north. The Donets line is well and truly smashed.